The satmar rov, in his sefer, make an interesting point. He counters an argument made by some who try to put the reshoim of klall yisroel into the best light possible. They claim that the students of the Besht, and most notably, R levi yitzchok of Bardichov allways found ways to show how Klall Yisroels sins where less than they seem.The satmar rov says on this, that chas veshalom did these tzadikim minimise the bad of these reshoim. Rather they directed these thought only to hashem, to be melamed zechus on klal yisroel. However, when dealing with the people, reshoim where, and should, be portrayed and fought, as the evil that they are.

Another point he makes is that the Besht only targeted his torah to his students, and where meant to be understood in a certain specific way. The average person dosnt know what the intent was, because the Beshts torah was meant to be passed from rebbe to talmid, not in the form of written works. Therefore, anyone who quotes the Besht, in an effort to be melamed zechus onreshaim, is really in error.

Which sefer? Vayoel Moshe? Or Al Hageula Ve'al HaTemura?

VM

But where does the Satmarer ZYA draw the line? What does he have to say about the concept of tinoikos she'nishbe'u?

Thats not really the point, but I assume, if they are tring to cause damage to klaal yisroel, they should be fought.

What your quote says actually ties into Reb Yoilish's view that the Torah of the Besht has been forgotten. Still, though, when he used the word reshoim, did he specifically mean Zionists? Or did it also include Reform and the like, who regardless of their halachic status must be fought at any time when they take stands which impinge on the rights and practices of frum Jews.

and for a little fun:

The Admou"r meCreedmoor, in his sefer Vayaar Balak, mentions the need for a constant supply of reshoim by referring to the psukim "Ubeavud Reshoim Rino" and "Ivdu es Hashem beSimcha." According to the Hyliger Creedmoorer, yeshivas must produce a steady crop of reshoim, so that we can be joyful when they peyger. The shouts of joy upon the death of a rosho are equated with the simcha of avoidance Hashem; in fact the Creedmoorer yeshivas are open only to certified reshoim, and a felony record is a prerequisite for admittance.

He said that the derech of the Ba'al Shem Tov was forgotten, not the Torah of the Ba'al Shem Tov.

Oy - right you are!

What does the "derech" of the bal shem refer to?

*by the way , this thing is in the end of the 1st chelek of the sefer, about siman 170.

Uh, oh. The secret's out. You think Hashem read his sefer?

Is there anything from satmar rav that does not involve zionism, reshaim, etc.

probably involves shaved heads or the evils of girls reading chumash in ivrit or whatever other perversions of judaism were available

so please give us examples of rabbi levi yitzchok fighting reshoim? in fact when he and his family were kicked out, he didn't begin fighting. many of the stories about him have a point that he found the good in people because to him it came naturally to see the good. a point that the misguided satmar fanatics tend to miss especially if it interferes with them going wilding.

Well put.

That would be funny if it weren't so darned true.

Let's look at this in context. Survivors of the Shoah reacted very differently to their horrible experiences, which BH we will never understand. Some abandoned Judaism. Some went on as before, reconstructing communities or finding their way into new communities in their new homes.

Others remained frum, but in a very cynical, angry way. They were furious toward the world, furious toward Hashem, furious toward their fellow Jew, unhappy in their new surroundings - but they translated their fury into even greater standards of observance. Their beliefs could almost be summarised by the kapitel tehillim "Kel Nekamois Hofiya," and they looked for a way to bring about that which is described in said kapitel.

Those are the people who were attracted to the isolationism and uncompromising stance of Satmar. If anything, the Satmar Rov deserves credit for keeping his psychologically bruised followers from really going off the wall - it is only after Reb Yoilish was niftr that things began falling apart, both due to the nature of his followers and due to the phenomenal growth of Satmar.

That is not to say that ALL Satmar followers are of the type I described above. There are many reasons to be attracted to an insular community; some people prefer conformity and rigidity, and there were those who belonged to similar communities in Hungary/Romania before the Shoah and wanted to continue their way of life in the US.

Please do not forget for one moment that Satmar has one of the largest chesed operations; it is sad that so many people think of Satmar as those people who burn the flag every 5 Iyar - until they land in the hospital, as all of us probably will at some time, and they are visited by Satmar Bikur Cholim volunteers.

And finally, because 2 schmohawks from Williamsburgh burned their warehouses and are going off to kollel does not mean all businessmen from said community are ganovim. The Satmar electronics stores in Manhattan are probably tops when it comes to prices, straight warranties, returns when necessary etc - in fact these Satmar entrepreneurs cleaned up the business and brought down the unfair pricing schemes of the Japanese manufacturers themselves.

good post itche and very true

That's a beautiful vort. May we all be zocheh to turn our love into hate and to hate with love.

Those falmiliar with satmar know that most of the rebbes works have nothing to do with these issues

misos,

i hope you are following the words of the satmar rebbe and are out there fighting the reshoim all over the place. where can i join the fight? any thing in my neighbohood coming up? tell us how a follower of the satmar rov does this? you guys are the mumchim in this area i must say. so from now on any one who wants to learn the mleches a milchomo should consult a good old fasioned satmar chossid like misos.

to all others here, does this clown even realise how stupid he sounds? does this guy realise that he is making the satmar rov look terrible? you remind me of the mishichistin who think their doing the rebbe a great service while really ruining every thing he tried to accomplish.

Is there some meaning to what you say?

Im not sure what your problem is. I basically copied his words out of vayoel moshe. I might have used a few different words, but the point is that bad should not be tolerated or excused. As chazal say, col hanerachem al haachzarim, sofo leachzer al harachmonim.

I think it takes a very high level to hate resho'im properly. I wish I were on that level.

kol hamerachem in chazal has nothing to do with any thing you posted in your first post. in that post you were talking about reshoim in the sense of doing evil towards g-d i.e. not doing mitzvos, no? because thats what the satmar rebbe is talking about there. any way, what was the point of that post? who is it directed towards? like what kind of reshoim were you reffering to? the jews in comunities in america who are frei and are being cared for by shluchim etc.? can you be more specific as to what you meant?

from his thread title, I assume it's directed toward the Zionists

Its good to first understand, then criticise if necessary.

The point is that some people attemt to do harm, like the zionim in the satmar rebbes case. Others who dissagree are tempted to give them the same ahavas yisrael. What the satmar R. says is that such action encourages them. Rather people should have the strength to ruin a good relationship they have with them, and protest their incorrect ways.

I'm just surprised that the Satmar Rebbe could have come up with such crum pshat on a simple Gemara.

ok, which gemara?

and i understood that in the first place and i think its wrong. especially the way you put it. one can fight an approach with out hating the people involved and that way have a much greater effect. see chapter 32 in tanya. i do not want to get into an argument if the derech of chassidus is the correct one or that of the satmar rov, thats not my intent here. i am just pointing out that your interpretation of his words are very easily missunderstood.

Dont let your politics influence your understanding of the gemara of kol hamerachem. What I said is pesut pshat, and I never said the satmar rebbe say it.

I am not convinced that the derech chassidus is different. The pasuk says Tachlis sinah saneisi, leoyvim hayu li.

I'm referring to the Gemara of the 3 oaths. I can't believe that someone could come up with something SO far from pshat.

Pretty remarkable.

and who is that posukl reffering to? minim and apikorsim. i hardly think any of todays tzionim or frei yidden are in that category. maybe a few but 99.9% are not.

i'll tell you a story. a satmar yid was once by the rebbe. the rebbe asked him to say over a vort of the satmar rebbe. the satmar was caught off gaurd but then said the following vort he heard from the satmar rebbe that week. the satamr rebbe asked the following question: it says poshei yisroel are milei'im mitzvos kirimon. he asked; if they are poshei yisroel how could you say that they are milei'im mitzvos kirimon. when the rebbe heard this from that chossid he became very serious and said to him: i too had the same question but in the opposite. if they are milei'im mitzvos kirimon how could you say that they are poshei yisroel.

have a nice day

by coincidence, so did the Maharal, no?

If you're responding to my post, my response is that he's referring to everyone, because the Gemara refers to Clal Yisrael.

It CLEARLY goes against pshat in the Gemara. Take a look at Rashi.

In fact, take a look at all of the chareidim and other datiim making aliyah.

Not that I have ever seen.

hmmm, read the Vayoel Moshe.

Why don't you just tell me exactly where the Maharal says this? I'll look it up directly myself.

We ALL can.

And then I'll ask the thousands of chariedi olim from Har Nof, Mattersdorf, Maalot Dafna, Ramat Beit Shemesh, Beitar, and so on what they think.

In fact, every Shabbat, on my yishuv there are chareidi guys from the yeshivot who come to experience yishuv life in YeShA- Misnaggdim AND Chassidim. I'll ask them too.

oh, please.
(but b'n Ill try to post the exact reference to the Maharal later, but I have guests staying so it may take a little while)

Please what? The fact is that de facto, the frum world has rejected that position that the Satmar Rebbe took.

For good reason.

"Frum world" ? Care to define ?

Excuse me, but did I say otherwise? All I did was to point out that the Satmar Rav wasn't the first to interpret that gemara in that way. Rather, it's pretty well consistent with the Maharal. That's not to say one can't reject that opinion. I'm just saying he didn't "come up with such crum pshat on a simple Gemara" out of thin air.

If I have to define it for you, then you're obviously not part of it.

My brother once met this person ..he was either Satmer or Neturey karta..anyhow he was cursing going crazy about the 'MEDINE' that has to be destroyed and that the Ziyoynim are Reshuim...TODAY THAT GUY IS A MUSLIM!!!! i think he lives in Chevron in the Arab quarter...there was an article about him in Yediot..and other newspapers around ..and I'm sure some of u heard about him...the point is when u get carried away to much u might end up just like him with 5 wives and 20 little Muhammads runing around u..

1. I'm waiting to see the mekor from the Maharal.

2. Any way you look at it, it's crum pshat. Look at the Gemara yourself. It's pretty clear.

He has a web site (along with 2 wives).

I have fought with him many times on message boards- complete rasha.

Too ashamed to post under your real name, boy ?

I post under my real name, boy.

And in any case, message boards are about IDEAS- not people.

You obviously can't defend your ideas.

What ideas are you referring too, dear one-day-old member ?