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Liorah-Lleucu
I have a question. It really belongs in the daf yomi forum, but since I just requested posting privileges and patience isn't one of my virtues, I suppose it could be ok here too, since it is divrey Torah, technically. So, here goes:

This is what I am commenting on (regarding pesachim 22):
QUOTE
The Meaning of “Et”, and the Meaning of Truth

The Talmud relates the story of Shimon [or Nechemyah] HaImsuni, who expounded the meaning of the word “et” every time it appeared in the Torah. He abandoned the endeavor, however, when he tried to address the verse (Devarim 10:20), “You shall fear “et” the Lord thy God”, stating, “Just as I have merited reward for the interpretation, I will likewise merit reward for abandoning [the apparently untrue interpretation]. However, R. Akiva came along and salvaged the interpretative process, explaining that the word “et” in that verse comes to include a Torah scholar under the obligation of “fear”, or reverence.

R. Chaim Ya’akov Goldvicht commented on the fact that Shimon HaImsuni, who had become the expert on the meaning of “et”, was stymied by this verse, while R. Akiva was able to interpret it. He explained that at first, the challenge of understanding what other being could be included within the fear of God was too great, even for one expert in this area. R. Akiva, however, had the advantage of witnessing Shimon HaImsuni’s unwavering commitment to truth. When he saw how one who had devoted so much labor to a project was nonetheless ready to abandon that project when it appeared inconsistent with truth, R. Akiva was inspired to realize that Torah scholars also deserve to be included in the commandment of reverence.


My understanding is that the word "et" comes to add - and this would make sense since "et" is of the expansive "order of chesed" (alef to tav). In contradistinction to "et", the word "ta" (cell, like a cell in the temple is completely dark, tav to alef) alludes to the "order of gevurah".

The thing that has me stymied is the sentence "Akiva came along and salvaged the interpretative process, explaining that the word “et” in that verse comes to include a Torah scholar under the obligation of “fear”, or reverence."

What does this statement mean? Is this Torah verse (Devarim 10:20) some sort of fuzzy pivot point where chesed and gevurah merge into one another? And to "merge" the two attributes successfully, one is under "the obligation of fear"?

Can anyone elaborate a bit more?

Thanks.

melech
Iyov 6:14

לַמָּס מֵרֵעֵהוּ חָסֶד; וְיִרְאַת שַׁדַּי יַעֲזוֹב

.
rashi613
Liorah, there are 2 types of fear that the mystics commonly speak of. One is a result of HaShem's Gevura and the other is a result of HaShem's Chesed. One level is regular fear as a result of the Gevura that HaShem expresses to us in that He can both punish us and with hold revelation from us. The other level is better defined as awe than fear. It is an awe at HaShem's greatness in that he provides for all and is the manhig olam. This is the other type of fear. This is Yira ilaah (the higher fear) that the mystics refer to and it is a result of HaShem's chesed.



Gevura is also more versatile than is commonly thought...

Liorah-Lleucu
QUOTE(melech @ Feb 17 2006, 07:38 AM) [snapback]456873[/snapback]

Iyov 6:14

לַמָּס מֵרֵעֵהוּ חָסֶד; וְיִרְאַת שַׁדַּי יַעֲזוֹב

.

Iyov 6:14 To him that is ready to faint kindness is due from his friend, even to him that forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.

Devarim 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; Him shalt thou serve; and to Him shalt thou cleave, and by His name shalt thou swear.

אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ תִּירָא, אֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹד; וּבוֹ תִדְבָּק, וּבִשְׁמוֹ תִּשָּׁבֵעַ.

Were the two sages contemporaries?


melech
QUOTE(liorah @ Feb 17 2006, 01:33 PM) [snapback]457319[/snapback]

Iyov 6:14 To him that is ready to faint kindness is due from his friend, even to him that forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.

Devarim 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; Him shalt thou serve; and to Him shalt thou cleave, and by His name shalt thou swear.

אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ תִּירָא, אֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹד; וּבוֹ תִדְבָּק, וּבִשְׁמוֹ תִּשָּׁבֵעַ.

Were the two sages contemporaries?

Iyov and Moshes Rabbeinu? According to some midrashim, sure they were.
Liorah-Lleucu
QUOTE(rashi613 @ Feb 17 2006, 10:16 AM) [snapback]457071[/snapback]

Liorah, there are 2 types of fear that the mystics commonly speak of. One is a result of HaShem's Gevura and the other is a result of HaShem's Chesed. One level is regular fear as a result of the Gevura that HaShem expresses to us in that He can both punish us and with hold revelation from us. The other level is better defined as awe than fear. It is an awe at HaShem's greatness in that he provides for all and is the manhig olam. This is the other type of fear. This is Yira ilaah (the higher fear) that the mystics refer to and it is a result of HaShem's chesed.



Gevura is also more versatile than is commonly thought...

Yirah ilaah - that would be the result of chesed of gevurah or chesed of chesed?

QUOTE(melech @ Feb 17 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]457320[/snapback]

Iyov and Moshes Rabbeinu? According to some midrashim, sure they were.

No, I meant Shimon/Nechemya HaImsuni and R. Akiva?

Why is the former not called a rabbi? And what does his name mean?

Thank you.
melech
QUOTE(liorah @ Feb 17 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]457323[/snapback]

Yirah ilaah - that would be the result of chesed of gevurah or chesed of chesed?
No, I meant Shimon/Nechemya HaImsuni and R. Akiva?



Oh. Well, some say Shim'on/Nechamya Imsuni is the same guy as Nachum of Gimzo, which would would make him a teacher of R. Akiva.
Liorah-Lleucu
QUOTE(melech @ Feb 17 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]457390[/snapback]

Oh. Well, some say Shim'on/Nechamya Imsuni is the same guy as Nachum of Gimzo, which would would make him a teacher of R. Akiva.

I'm still thinking about this. I think I want to think about it more over shabbat as well, before responding. Whatever is churning around in my mind is not through forming yet. When the dust settles ...
Liorah-Lleucu
QUOTE(melech @ Feb 17 2006, 01:58 PM) [snapback]457390[/snapback]

Oh. Well, some say Shim'on/Nechamya Imsuni is the same guy as Nachum of Gimzo, which would would make him a teacher of R. Akiva.

The mark of a great teacher is that his/her students become greater than the teacher, yes?
rashi613
QUOTE(liorah @ Feb 17 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]457323[/snapback]

Yirah ilaah - that would be the result of chesed of gevurah or chesed of chesed?

It comes through any part of the Kav HaSmol or the Kav HaEmtzaee and is mostly influenced by Malchus, and, more specifically, by Gevura of Malchus. At the same time, it must have some element of Chesed inside it also, just by the fact that this is a revelation. This is usually sourced from the Chesed from before the tzimtzum or also known as Primordial Chesed, which is the same thing as primordial chochma. Both Chochma and chesed are nimshal to water.
Liorah-Lleucu
QUOTE(rashi613 @ Feb 19 2006, 09:45 AM) [snapback]458427[/snapback]

It comes through any part of the Kav HaSmol or the Kav HaEmtzaee and is mostly influenced by Malchus, and, more specifically, by Gevura of Malchus. At the same time, it must have some element of Chesed inside it also, just by the fact that this is a revelation. This is usually sourced from the Chesed from before the tzimtzum or also known as Primordial Chesed, which is the same thing as primordial chochma. Both Chochma and chesed are nimshal to water.

Interesting. Thanks. smile.gif
Liorah-Lleucu
QUOTE(liorah @ Feb 17 2006, 12:33 PM) [snapback]457319[/snapback]

Iyov 6:14 To him that is ready to faint kindness is due from his friend, even to him that forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.

לַמָּס מֵרֵעֵהוּ חָסֶד; וְיִרְאַת שַׁדַּי יַעֲזוֹב

Devarim 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; Him shalt thou serve; and to Him shalt thou cleave, and by His name shalt thou swear.

אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ תִּירָא, אֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹד; וּבוֹ תִדְבָּק, וּבִשְׁמוֹ תִּשָּׁבֵעַ.

Shim'on/Nechamya Imsuni is the same guy as Nachum of Gimzo, which would would make him a teacher of R. Akiva.

Some conclusions:

1. The mark of a great teacher is that his/her students become greater than the teacher.

2. Iyov 6:14 represents Shimon's level of understanding, where the first and last letters of the pasuk encapsulate its explicit order, the Written Torah - לב

3. Devarim 10:20 represents R. Akiva's level of understanding, where the first and last letters of the pasuk encapsulate its implicit order, Sitre Torah dancing between one and no thing - אע
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