Sorry that I'm asking on the portion we read already but reading the parsha something struck me as odd and I saw that no meforshim talked about it: perek lamid daled seems totally out of place. The brothers just sold Yosef and then it goes straight into talking about Yehuda and Tamar. What's up with that? Any suggestions?

Rashi discusses it, I forget exactly what he says, I'll go look it up...

I was looking everywhere for the answer and it was right there in Rashi! Thanks. However, it's still odd that the Torah chose to go into great detail about this story. I was thinking that it was a punishment for Yehuda. Just like he tricked Ya'akov with the death of Yosef by the kitones pasim, so too Tamar tricks him. And Yehuda finally does teshuva for this by "vayigash eilav yehuda."

Rashi perek lamed ches pasuk aleph:

"...lilamed shehoriduhu echav migdulaso ksherau b''tzaras avihem. Amru, ata amarta limachro. Ilu amarta lihashivo, hayinu shomim lach."

"...To teach that his brothers took him down from his position of leadership among them when they saw Yaakov's distress. They said to him, "You told us to sell Yosef. If you had told us to return him to Yaakov, we would have listened to you."


Basically it was a cause and effect. The shvatim lowered Yehuda because of what happened with michiras Yosef, and then the chumash continues with what happened to Yehuda because of them lowering him.

THAT'S what bothers you about the story - where it is and the detail? not that the mashiach is decended from this union?

Well I think that the message is that Mashiach can come from anybody(in shevet Yehuda). Same question could apply to David and Batsheva. Anybody has the ability to rise from a low stature to a high madrega.

Didn't he move out somewhere? (It's been a while, but I recall something...)

Yeah..I think that's in pasuk beis

Well, youdid not say that

Another answer that I got out of the medrash says:

The selling of Yosef was the beginning of the first galus, but before that, Hashem wanted to set the stage for the final geula, and so he brought Yehuda and Tamar together, who were the ancestors of mashiach.

This shows us how Hashem guides history. While everyone was busy with their own affairs, (the shevatim selling Yosef, Reuven doing teshuva, Yaakov mourning for Yosef, Yehuda getting married, etc.), Hashem was preparing the coming of Mashiach.

so here's a contentious issue: just like the mashiach comes specifically from a questionable union, so did medinat yisrael need to be built specifically by non-observant jews

i dont see the analogy really

Not really, since I have heard that the reason is that malchus beis dovid could have become baalei gaava from their consistently high positions, and their murky origins helped remind them that they were messengers of HaShem.