Hi! My husband, 2 babies, and I hope to move to Israel in 2007. I expect I'll want to work in Jerusalem for IDT, as I don't speak Hebrew, and I currently do customer service phone work. We plan on making a pilot trip soon and would like to know more about the communities within 45 minutes of Jerusalem by bus. We have the following peferences:

1. Frequent busses to Jerusalem that run fairly late as we would like to live without a car.

2. Not too many English speakers.

3. A large dati leumi population.

4. Can be on either side of the green line, but definitely needs to be within the borders of the fence.

5. A safety net for new olim.

6. Reasonable rent

We are currently looking into the following communities: Modiin, Mevasseret Zion, Maale Adumim, and Gush Etzion.

Please let us know about any other areas that fit the bill.

Thanks,
mslittky

if you do not speak hebrew I would suggest Efrat, try maale adumim speaking russian will help you there, or look into Tekoa

From what I read on the Egged website, Efrat and Tekoa probably don't have good enough public transport late at night. Plus, Tekoa seems like a scary place to raise kids. I don't know about Efrat, but I thought Tekoa was outside the planned fence.

mslittky

Efrat's full of Anglos, which s/he said they didn't want. It should be inside the fence, though, as it's so big and relatively close to Jerusalem.
Nefesh b'Nefesh's site has community stats; so does Tehilla's.

Ramallah ?

I don't mind English speakers, I just don't want to end up in "Little America." The NBN and Tehilla community websites didn't include info on Mevasseret Zion or Moza. And now that I think about it, does anyone know about Pisgat Zeev and French Hill and the other East Jerusalem settlements?

mslittky

Pisgat Zeev and French Hill are not "settlements". They are neighborhoods of Jerusalem.

Efrat is one of the big "Little America" areas, though--it was founded by Rav Riskin who is American. That and Beit Shemesh (Givat Sharrett) and RBS A. And Ra'anana to an extent.

Maale Adumim is great; plenty of both English and non-English speakers, plenty of dati-leumi and other kinds of people.

In general plenty of buses to Jerusalem but please note: despite that fact that tons of people here work at IDT, there is no direct bus. Once you have to take two buses or more it becomes time consuming.

I presume you know the IDT work is 3-11 PM or 11pm - 7am. Will working those hours with small children be comfortable for you?

Good luck.

I live in a yishuv and most of them are dati leumi. Which flavor are you looking for? There is a tremendous diversity to the flavor of the community religiously and politically. There is Torani which can be everything from Charedi w/kippah sruga (like us) or just more careful w/kashrus, tznius and separate education. "Regular dati" can range from where the first let out to very assimilated, pants and uncovered hair, dati lite its called. Each community has its own take on this. Questions are:

1. Do you want a talmud Torah or Mamad standard for schooling?
2. Do you want mixed events, swimming, singing, etc?
3. How do you relate to the political issues after the expulsion from Gush Katif - army, Yom Atzmaut and resistence? This is a very HOT issue right now.
4. Do you want all religious or davka mixed?
5. What kind of yeshiva/girls HS are you interested in. This will make or break kids being part of the crowd. Yishuvim also do not consider where you send your kids to school to be a private question. I fought for the right to do as I saw fit and still do.

I also stayed away from too many Anglos. I don't like the mindset.

Efrat is little America, Givat Zeev is becoming it as sefardim take over Har Nof. US citizens make up large proportion of settlers far above avg. Price range is a high where there are Anglos. Everywhere in Yerushalayim is prohibitively expensive. Maale Adumim and Modiin are cities which, while having religious communities, are basically secular.

I would recommend any almost any yishuv in the Binyamin regional council as they have an excellent municipality and lots of support. Kochav Yaakov has busses that are subsidized and run nearly every 20 minutes to Y-m. They run late also. The ride is about 10 min to the entrance of the city. 4.30 NIS to the city and it is included in the Jerusalem monthly pass. That means for 200 NIS (less than 50 bucks) you get a month of unlimited busfare to the city and on city busses. They also have beautiful new Jerusalem stone houses at the entrance to the yishuv 10 paces from the brand new girls' school. The crowd is "standard" dati leumi.

I second the motion. It sounds to me like Maale Adumim is the bet fit for your requirement. Especailly since you list the bis requirement. I think there are more buses from Maale Adumim to Yerushalayim than anywhere and it's only 15 minutes away. They even use regular "city buses" (with extra cusions) and not the fancy
'long distance" buses as it seems to me the goal is to one day actually make Maale Adumim part of Yerushalayim. Also, have you heard? They are building (or at least plans to build) an area connecting Maale Adumim to Yerushalayim - I think called Area E1. This might also be something to consider.

Here is a great website on Maale Adumim. As you can see they have probably the best bus service of anywhere. (Oh, yeah and for like 265 NIS or something around that you could buy a special Chodesh Chofshi which works in both Maale Adumim and Yerushalayim and in between.)

rmember people in outlying areas do not rely on egged, there are either private bus companies - Beiter Tours for example ( Beitar is a chareidi city in the gush) or people hitch, just gotta learn how to do it

What about neighborhoods IN Jerusalem like Har Homa or Gilo which are cheaper than the city center but still within the city limits and have regular busses? I hear there is still some stuff available for pretty cheap in Ramot (very close to IDT) which is the same situation, and they have a large Dati Leumi section (just make sure you are in the RIGHT (or is that left) section or you will enter super haredi turf).

Also what about Ramat Beit Shemesh Alef (NOT Bet see Ramot above), there are lots of Anglos (but not little america) but it is not Efrat, and there is a large dati leumi/ American modern haredi crowd as well and there are regular busses to J'lem and regular van service even later (for a little bit more money).

Modiin has some religious people but it is a pretty secular city and wants to stay that way. Maybe a modiin area settlement like Mattisahu/chashmonayim would be an option. Stay away from Kiryat Sefer...

Maale Adumim depends on the neighborhood which ranges from secular to pretty frum dati leumi. Don't really know much about it but it is much cheaper than J'lem because it is "over the green line".

Efrat is VERY American and quite expensive for anything decent. Alon Shvut (or another Gush Etzion community) may be good but the bus service is sporadic at best, everyone either has cars or hitches.

Also take Rikal's advice into account. Dati Leumi is a VERY wide range and each community is different. You need to find a place where you fit in.

Depends which section of Ramot, I know Bet is not so cheap.

Right as you enter the city, left as you leave.

I have been hearing alot about Neve Tzuf which is in the same area, sounds like something for you to check out.

The new areas are still affordable, but is it more "little America" from my understanding, that is actually where we are looking though.

Alon Shvut is nearly impossible to get into today.

I don't think you realize exactly where Neve Tzuf is....

I know some religious people in Modi'in--if what you want is a more mixed community, not exclusively frum, it's a good choice. Not good for the more right wing (religiously) DL though. Mattisyahu is more 'chardali' and you have to stick with the moshav rules.

RBS A is full of Americans, it's one of the big NBN destinations. It's not quite as Little America as parts of Beit Shemesh proper but still.

We don't want to live somewhere where we need to be approved... my husband's an ex-hippie and has a lot of authority issues.

Tekoa will supposedly not be included on our side of the fence..

shame I know a few people there and there is a mushroom farm there
anyhoo how about Neve Daniel?

I don't know anything at all about the DL world. But probably the best bet would be Maaleh Adumim, because it's a big city (no future worries about pullouts) which will always be part of Israel, is very close to Jerusalem, doesn't have any real terror dangers, and is very well connected to Jerusalem by bus.

Nof Aialon. No questions asked. Beautiful, safe, right near shalavim. Very leumi. Mostly Israeli, some English. Quiet. etc.

And expensive.

And not so near Yerushalayim.....

From the sound of it they'd be better off in a more diverse community rather than a yishuv which can be pretty conformist.
(Just checked and Nof Ayalon has an acceptance committee which she said they don't want.)

Bet El

Actually Bet El does fit...

There's only one bus though. The 170. Here's the schedule to Jerusalem:

Hour Line Type
06:00 170 col.
07:00 170 col.
08:10 170 col.
09:45 170 col.
10:30 170 col.
11:50 170 col.
12:20 170 col.
13:10 170 col.
14:25 170 col.
15:10 170 col.
16:25 170 col.
17:25 170 col.
18:25 170 col.
19:25 170 col.
20:35 170 col.
21:45 170 col.
22:30 170 col.
23:30 170 col.

It takes about 40 minutes back and forth though because it goes through army bases sometimes. (Otherwise it takes 20 minutes). The Bus is subsidized and only costs like 6 NIS.

Most people living in Bet El actually hitchhike because it's so much faster. Geographically though, Bet El is not far from Jerusalem at all!

Arutz-7 also has it's website and web radio headquarters there.

Its got plenty of english speakers, but it is, in no way, a little america. One little section of Bet El is english speaking, but even that doesnt feel at all like ramat bet shemesh. It has all types of frumkeit levels fitting into the dati leumi mindset. But its VERY dati leumi- you don't know what dati leumi means until you meet bet el-nikim.

So what does dati leumi mean, exactly?
It's a serious question BTW...

Religious Zionist. But it covers an enormous spectrum from women in jeans to men with full beards (OK very superficial I know). The Israeli dividing line isn't so much about how modern you act, it's about how Zionist you are. (Although "Modern chareidi" would be an oxymoron.)

My impression of Beit El is that it's quite to the right of the DL spectrum--often chareidi-like in observance, but very, very Zionist.

used to daven at Dati Leumi in Har Nof and people accepted me even with my bekeshe and beard, most "frum" people in Eretz Yisroel, either Dasi Leumi or hardcore chassidish get along on the basics and help each other out, mi keamcha yisroel, we all have differetn hashkafos but when it comes to chesed we are all family

For us, dati leumi means observant, kids doing military service, and a community where TV is OK. I cover my hair and wear skirts, but I want to live in a place where I can be friends with women who don't.

You didn't mention tzioni, but NY-LON says it's all about how tzioni you are. I'm confused.

Interesting perspective.
My dati leumi friends in Israel mostly can't stand the charedim though.
And my one charedi friend is very respectful of all Jews (from chiloni to charedi) but she doesn't feel much of a kinship with dati leumi Israelis at all.




Doing military service pretty much implies tzioni.

As Shoshi says, going into the army implies you're tzioni.
Also, while Zionism separates right-wing DL from chareidi, there's really no such thing as modern chareidi. No way could you be chareidi and (openly) have a TV. Israeli-chareidi is easier to match to US norms as it's closer to right wing yeshivish/chassidish. It's the more right-wing DL that don't have an exact US equivalent. (And for that matter, American "modern yeshivish" don't have such an Israeli one.)

Confusing, isn't it?! But at the left and right ends, it's easier to distinguish.

What characterized Rightwing DL then? which towns described above would be characterisitc?

There are 2 Bet Els, alef and Bet. Alef is Rav Aviner, towards the charedi side of dl. Bet is Rav Melamed of Arutz 7 fame. Very Leumi, as if the dati and leumi did sort of a split in a lg yishuv. I don't think either side would nix a tv, I don't see pants (I'm not there alot). Even in alef there are plenty who don't listen to R' aviner on tznius and stuff (among other things) that make people characterize him as charedi or chardal. He doesn't go over any of the really big issurim of the dl mindset like separating gans or youth group, or requiring stockings. All in all you have pockets of most of the dl spectrum there except the really shtark, near charedi.

BTW, the differences are being defined less and less by what heterim can I get away with and more by wider hashkafa issues.

The bus schedule is not relevant as there is a ride out about every 3 minutes most of the day, but not in the 2-3:30 pm slot. Ditto coming back. The most staunch "What me hitchike?!" types start taking rides after a month or 2.

There are quite a lot of Anglos, but its not overwhelming. I would call it a comfortable, middle class, DL suburb of Y-m.

Isn't it expensive, though? Seems so.

Religious Zionist.
In bet el, it pretty much is VERY zionistic, with a religious slant to the zionism, not just zionistic as well as religious.


Bet El alef and Bet are different. Bet el alef is pretty modern, bet el bet is more charedi leumi- very religious, but zionistic.


Rikal, sorry, but I really must correct you.
Bet el alef is headed by rav aviner- a VERY religious and machmir rabbi, but bet el alef is the modern part. TVs, most women cover their hair, but not all. Many women wear pants, but not all. Co-ed activities aren't frowned upon. No one would walk around in sleeveless and mini skirts there- there ARE limits.
Bet el bet is more charedi- no guy/girl interaction, no TVs, very few people with internet, very machmir on lots of things. Badatz only in their makolet. But VERY ultra zionistic.

The great thing about bet el is that there is one school that everyone goes to- from BOTH communities. People are friends with people from "the other bet el", will eat at each other's houses even though their daughters wear pants and talk to boys, etc. And there isnt resentment of the modern community thinking "oh, those charedim think they're so much better than us". Its a very warm and friendly community, and if it werent wrong for me hashkafically, i would LOVE to live there.

Its a GREAT/AWESOME community if you're dati leumi.


And about pricing- my family bought a 6 bedroom house there for $120,000. Not exactly what most would call very expensive...

And don't forget... you could always live on the bet el artis (hilltop) in a caravin (trailer). It pretty much free and you get a great view! I have a freind that lives there.

But you pretty much need a car for that or be in good shape to walk up a huuuuuuuuuge hill every day.

I more or less said what you did.

I said I didn't see pants, but I'm not there that much. I know people on both sides and I know the mecolet in alef in which I, who eats only badatzim, have had trouble finding a snack in. Not everyone in alef goes w/R' Aviner, but most do. If they haven't they may have left. Eating habits - I know only my friends. Are you saying the kids in alef don't keep their own family standards when out of the house?

Is the Zilberman Talmud Torah the only boys' school. I also see a few (admittedly not very many) Bet El girls w/ Beis Yaakov uniforms at Givat Tzorfatit.

As to being friends, I don't think I imlplied otherwise.

The boys schools are the "bet sefer libanim", the talmud torah, and yeshivat bnei tzvi.
I didnt say you were all wrong, so what i said in my post wasnt neccesarily contradictory to yours, rikal. Sorry if it seemed that way.
But most people that i know in bet el alef DO NOT hold by rav aviner...

There are definitely a lot, but it is a recent (last few years) development.

Caravans are fun! I once slept over in a friend's caravan at Michlelet Orot.

Sounds like we've got the same issues. We're moving somewhere where our friends keep telling us we're crazy because it's "black" and we're, well, purple. Except on Shabbos, when we're white. We've learned to limit the tie-dye to socks. Though it does show with the sandals ...



Am going to have a hard time in E'Y with this labeling business, can see that already.

If you get a good answer, please forward it. We're also flailing, and have similar requirements to yours (though we don't want to be in Jerusalem just because it gets too expensive for us to deal with).

you say that RBS A is not little america? i would say that it very much is. you dont even have to know hebrew when living there. i know that i hear more english than hebrew there and well, it makes me a bit nauseous. i am not sure why these ppl actually came to Israel to just duplicate their community from chul.

Because they are still duchaning everyday and walking around on Holy soil. Plus if it makes it easier for people to make Aliyah I'm all for it! (Their kids will all (and do) speak Hebrew.)

um, ok, i dont know where you are talking about but where i live, i hear the children speaking 99% of the time in english, and i am not talking aobut to their parents, but to their friends on the street......do you know how sad that is to me?
(i love in RBS for circumstances that i cant get rid of for now, but want to move out of here soon)

That's not true at all - they speak 99% to their parent and 50-50 to their freinds. Well it really depends what friends they have - they may speak only english to "american" friends but have to speak hebrew to the israeli freinds.

Anyway the point it THEY KNOW Hebrew and they know it very well better then any kid growing up in Brooklyn.

Don't be so dismissive of the problems of kids growing up in Anglo ghettos. I know of kids who had a LOT of trouble because they never really acclimated to Israeli society. It's not just speaking English, it's that their entire world is half American, half Israeli.

that is exactly what i am talking about. those children grow up in a confused state of sort of israeli society but really its a sub getto of anglo culture.

we live there right now (for certain reasons) but i know that is soon as we would be expecting a child, i would want to run the heck out of there. i did not move to israel so that my children can grow up in an anglo getto. i moved to israel so that my children can ggrow up in a true israeli culture, for better and for worse.