mendelbaum666 mentioned that



This reminded me of something I read from Rav Pinchas Winston. (Also see my recommended reading thread.) Here are a few short excerpts from his book “Talking About Eretz Yisroel: The Profound and Essential Meaning of Making Aliyah.”

Please understand that there is a lot more written in between the “…” and to really appreciate Rabbi Winston’s full message that text is really necessary. I once again highly recommend buying this book – it enlightened me to a who new dimension to Aliyah. After reading it I don’t know how one could possible live anywhere but Eretz Yisrael.

I feel these brief excerpts which don’t tell the whole story still could give you a bit of an understanding of what he is saying and certainly enough to spark a discussion about parnussah and Eretz Yisrael:

[Start Quote From Book (Chapter 10)]
It is an amazing thing. If ever a Jew wanted an excuse not to make aliyah today he has one: over 300,000,000 neighbors on three sides who dream of the day the State of Israel will no longer exist, with the desire, the money, and even the chutzpah to actualize their dream. Honest analysis reveals that the only reason why they have yet to succeed, in spite of multiple efforts, is a great big ongoing miracle. Yet, when the average non-aliyah making Jew is asked why he feels no compulsion to at least get the ball rolling on returning to the Jewish homeland, his inheritance, strangely enough the Arab threat is rarely raised, as if it doesn’t exist. Indeed, such people even send their own children to yeshivah or seminary in Eretz Yisroel with rarely a second thought!

What is the key issue that obstructs the path of many a Western Jew today from completing his three-millennia journey home to the promised and cherished Land?

Parnassah — making a living.

…

I am God, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, to be God to you. (Vayikra 25:38)

The Talmud takes this posuk literally, commenting as follows:

One should always live in the Land of Israel, even in a town most of whose inhabitants are idolaters, but let no one live outside the Land, even in a town most of whose inhabitants are Jews; for whoever lives in the Land of Israel may be considered to have a God, but whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who has no God. For it says, “I am God, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, to be God to you” (Vayikra 25:38). He does not have any God? Rather, it is to tell you that whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who worships idols. Similarly it was said in [the story of] David, “For they have driven me out this day that I should not cleave to the inheritance of the Lord, saying: ‘Go, serve other gods.’“ (I Shmuel 26:19) But who said to David, “Serve other gods”? Rather, it is to tell you that whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who worships idols. (Kesuvos 110b)

Therefore, since the point of being redeemed from Egypt was so that God could be our God, and that seems to be dependent upon being in Eretz Yisroel specifically, it must be that the entire journey in the desert was meant as preparation to enter the Land.

After all, as the Torah says, living in Eretz Yisroel, especially after coming from a place such as Egypt, required tremendous preparation:

For, the land you are about to possess is not like Egypt from where you came, and in which, if you sowed seeds, you had to bring water to them as you would for a garden of green herbs. The land you are about to possess has mountains and deep valleys, and is watered by rain from the sky — a land which God, your God, cares for, God, your God pays attention to continuously the entire year. (Devarim 11:11-12)

Why was it that Dovid HaMelech felt that living just over the border made him into an idol worshipper? The answer is in the above pesukim: in Eretz Yisroel it is impossible to attribute success or failure to anyone but God Himself; direct and pronounced Hashgochah Pratis makes sure of that.

In Chutz L’Aretz, however, since God works more covertly, allowing the cause-and-effect association to become less clear, it is possible to attribute success or failure to Nature. It is much easier to become either self-reliant, or reliant on other people in the Diaspora.

Read: less reliant on God.

Indeed, the fundamental difference between living in Eretz Yisroel and Chutz L’Aretz is the difference between living on the level of yaish m’ayin versus yaish m’yaish — something from nothing or something from something.

…


Hence, this is what making aliyah is supposed to be all about: moving up from yaish m’yaish to yaish m’Ayin, from a lesser level of Hashgochah Pratis to a more pronounced and direct one, from a distant relationship with God to a close one exhibited by one’s willingness to rely upon Him completely for sustenance. This is why the Torah reports:

Ya’akov, Ya’akov . . . Do not be afraid to go down to Egypt . . . (Bereishis 46:2-3)

God told him this because he was grieved about leaving Eretz Yisroel. (Rashi)

And even when Ya’akov was forced to descend to Egypt, only that which was associated with Eretz Yisroel was valuable in his eyes:

They took their cattle and their possessions which they acquired in Eretz Canaan. (Bereishis 46:6)

He said, “The possessions I obtained outside of Israel have no value to me.” (Rashi)

And now we know why. What Ya’akov Avinu had earned in Chutz L’Aretz did not necessarily prove his close relationship with God, for others could have just as easily succeeded as he had done. Though God had increased his wealth miraculously, there was still enough of Nature involved in his success that Lavan’s sons could accuse their cousin of Ya’akov taking that which they felt really belonged to them.

On the other hand, what he gained in Eretz Yisroel was yaish m’Ayin and likewise completely uncontested, for it was clear that it was directly from God to Ya’akov Avinu, and a function of his close relationship with Him. Property you can leave behind just about anywhere, but a relationship with God, especially on the level of yaish m’Ayin you take with you everywhere you must go.
[End Quote]

The rest of the chapter is real important too but the idea is of course it's harder to make a parnussah in Eretz Yisrael - that's exactly the whole point! That's the idea of become closer to Hashem soley by relying on Him and no one else.

It's so frustrating- so many people I know are afraid to make aliyah because of money issues!

They should be afraid.
Living in Israel is basically taking a vow of poverty.
True, you MIGHT not be poor. but most israelis are.

it wouldn't be so difficult emotionally to be poor among the poor, what is difficult emotionally is being poor among the rich

1st WOWEEE I got quoted

next poor? depends on your standard of living

if you work hard and know the right people you can make a decent living, most olim it takes a very long time untill they have the right contacts and unfortunetly there are way too many nut cases who have made aliyah years ago and think they know it all.

I agree with this. It's not that hard emotionally to be poor in Israel - most Israelis are somewhat poor. To clarify, most Israelis are like lower-middle class Americans. And we are talking very lower middle class. Two income families, both parents may even have full-time jobs that are somewhat professional, however, they are barely getting by, not able to save any money, and to buy anything is a big dilemma.
That being said, they are not hungry, and they fit into the mainstream society. Most people in Israel live like this, so there is no stigma.

I disagree that it's possible to make a decent living in Israel for most people.
If most people could, they would.
In fact, the average income is about $15,000 a year.
That's not really a decent living.

איזה הוא עשיר--השמח בחלקו, שנאמר "יגיע כפיך, כי תאכל; אשריך, וטוב לך" (תהילים קכח,ב): "אשריך", בעולם הזה; "וטוב לך", לעולם הבא.

Who is rich? He who rejoices in his portion, as it is written (Psalm 128:2) "You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall go well with you." "You shall be" refers to this world; and "it shall be well with you" refers to the world to come.

Avot 4:1

When you really think about all the expenses for a Frum Jew in most major cities in Chutz Leaaretz, money doesn't sound like such an issue. Besides how often do we hear people lamenting here about all those "chassidishe parasites" who are on welfare and other government funding programs. How many people can really afford to pay tuition for their 7 or 8 kids or $1500 rent for a modest place in Brooklyn? Forget actually BUYING a house in the city. What does glatt kosher food cost these days? How many people in Lakewood are "rolling in dough"?

Sure if you want to be a rich "businessman" Israel is not the best place, but there is many a Jew who made a fortune in Israel as well. Look at Optica Halperen for example. Also people with skills in areas such as high tech can certainly make a decent living here, many even offer benefits like free company cars and gas subsidies.

Or if you want to live in a place like Betar or Tel Zion Kiryat Sefer or Elad the mortgages can sometimes be less than $250 a month and then you OWN the house instead of paying rent all those years. My rent is $100 a month for half of a house.

I think they mean the AACI definition of poor. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when the organization that is supposed to be representing me says to the Israeli gov that Americans won't come because its impossible to have 2 cars (not true anymore) or a single family, architect designed house in Herztliya Pituach.

Most people don't make aliya for one of 3 reasons (most, not all):

1. Ideology/religion antizionism or super crass materialism.
2. Fear of leaving family and friends.
3. BS they have been told by people who have either never been to Israel or saw it from the tour bus and hotel window. Or even worse, a tour sponsored by a "major Jewish organization" which has a vested interest in keeping its contributors there.

.
The JP asked people to help a family that wanted to go back because they thought that not having a fully competitive womens' sport program was a sign of an abysmally poor educational system. Their girls weren't training for the olympics, just run of the mill grade school and jr hi girls. Both husband and wife admitted they had great jobs and could afford for their girls to go to the private sports that are well developed in Israel. It was the principle of the PS not offering this for free.

My nieces were told that the people in our yishuv are very, very poor. Only the rav may know everybody's financial situation as we own the local mecolet. We usually tell him if someone is running into hot water. Everybody who owns their own home has a single family on a quarter acre. W e have many families who own one home and rent another. Ther are out of 130 families around 10 who have 2 cars. This despite the fact that all of the families are religious, 5 children & up is the norm and a large number have men who learn at least half a day. Many are married by 18.

My bil was told we don't have fresh vegetables. I have no idea why a truck comes up and drops off crates of things resembling tomatoes, cucumbers and Gush Katif greens in front of my store twice a week. And why should we bother bringing them for the poor Israelis who don't have money for food.

Much damage was done by the well meaning send your used clothing to Israel people.

The only real poverty case we have here is a college educated couple.

Rikal, I agree that American Jews may exaggerate the poverty of Israelis.

Of course there are Israelis doing well.

I have been on kibbutzim, by the way, where fresh fruits were not served (except for the children) because the kibbutz needed to sell all the fruit harvested for a profit.
There are kibbutzim, yishuvim, and plain old regular Israelis who are suffering a bit, or at least tightening their belts.

By the way, owning a makolet is a good Israeli business! I assume your financial situation is pretty good.
In addition, it's possible to not report all of one's income this way (have people pay in cash) - that's the best way to make a decent living in Israel by avoiding the crazy income taxes.

Don't you think it's sad that a couple who managed to acquire 4 year college degrees are "poverty cases"??
That in itself doesn't speak well for the country.

Indeed. And I'll repeat from my original post...

For, the land you are about to possess is not like Egypt from where you came, and in which, if you sowed seeds, you had to bring water to them as you would for a garden of green herbs. The land you are about to possess has mountains and deep valleys, and is watered by rain from the sky — a land which God, your God, cares for, God, your God pays attention to continuously the entire year. (Devarim 11:11-12)

While most Israelis aren't on the poverty line the way some Americans like to think it is hard for olim--they have to start over. THey don't necessarily have the skills you need in Israel and they definitely don't have the 'protekzia'. It's not always possible to live in the cheaper areas (fewer jobs, or you have to spend a lot of money on buying and maintaining a car) and what looks like a cheap apartment on paper isn't so cheap when you're making under NIS10K gross. Some things are more expensive--education is cheaper (even the most expensive semi-private schools are under NIS10K a year) and health care is cheaper, but you can forget about eating American quantities of red meat.

Plus, many American Jews do have a very high standard of living by US standards so going from that to an average Israeli one is scary. School, housing etc may be expensive in the US but salaries are higher too. How many Americans can hope to make NIS50K a month in Israel? And that's at a much higher tax rate.

That said, I'll admit that many Americans are spoiled and don't want to move to Israel without their American lifestyle. Unless they can live in a house (or at least a 'cottage' with garden) in an Anglo area, have a car, etc they don't want to do it.

We make much less than others because our mecolet is in a yishuv that only has 130 families. Because times are harder people will go out to buy cheaper instead of the convenience of shopping nearby. Vendors know that you are stuck and therefore charge us more for the item wholesale than you pay retail in the city. It is a common misconception. A neighborhood mecolet in the city that has built up a clientele is very profitable. We report every penny. There is a limit to how long you can live dishonestly and dh's is nonexistent.

Our educated poverty cases have very narrow definitions of "suitable work". This is a result of the way the labor ministry separates academic and non in their classifications and the teaching that a job change must always be a step up. When you can't pay the mecolet and you have kids then you have to take what is honest and allowed by the halacha.

There is no way someone needs 50k NIS to live in a reasonable way. People who make north of 10 can live ok if they don't have a large family. I know people who make less than 10 and have large families. They live better than I do by not wasting and being thrifty. I think in the US and other places there are many things that are extravagances that are considered necessities.

no, I didn't mean you need 50K, just that that's what these people are used to, and people don't want to lower their standard of living.

(I don't make anywhere near that amount: I'm a chutznik because I'd be one of those horrible whingeing Americans.)

I agree that Americans waste a lot of money on frivolous things.

(By the way, when you say NIS 50K, and NIS 10K, what do you mean? Per month? Per year?)

However, I do think that someone with a college degree should be able to have a job that allows them to live with some dignity. Unfortunately there are many jobs in Israel that are so low-paying they do not.

My friend's husband has a Ph.D. He had a position as a researcher in a laboratory researching a very important disease! However, his salary was about 4000 shekels per month (at the time it was about $1000 per month BEFORE taxes).
On that salary he couldn't pay his mortgage (on a modest 2 bedroom apartment in a not-so-expensive neighborhood in a not-so-expensive city) and live in any reasonably comfortable manner, and I use the term loosely.

My friend and her husband moved to America where they are living a normal middle class life - a house, car, etc.

It's a shanda that someone with a Ph.D. would have to live on a low salary like that in Israel.

per month. NIS10K a year wouldn't be very much at all!

Hmm. Was that in the talmud written by the people living in Bavel? Same comment for rashi and all the other commentators that were quoted in the article.



Shouldn't it be the reverse. If someone abandons his livelihood and way of life in order to live in the land Hashem set aside for him, shouldn't his efforts be rewarded through success? What is the purpose on relying on Hashem if this trust is repaid in poverty?

Wow. Someone's grabbing at straws.



Who says it's "repaid in poverty?"

Why don't you pay attention what you say in the very last paragraph of berchas hamazon?