The young lady lived in NY and matchmaker said the young lady "would consider" moving to Israel "if her bashert was there." Also this matchmaker makes her "members" accept her suggestions and date once or at least call no matter what.

Dear [censored],

I’m sorry but I don’t date girls that are not interested in Aliyah (and rarely girls that are not already in the process of making Aliyah or are already here.) Living in Eretz Yisrael is not easy and takes lots of sacrifices. I’m not looking for someone that will be doing me a favor by living here. They have to fully accept all the hardships of living here as their own personal decision.

I’m sorry if you don’t understand why this is a very important requirement. Moving to Israel is not exactly like moving from NYC to Monsey. It’s a dramatic life decision that should be made on its own merits and not something “willy nilly” – like “I’ll move there if my Bashert is there.”

If I seem a little harsh – I’m sorry. This issue really strikes a cord with me. I am a volunteer with Kumah (check out Kumah.org) which is an Aliyah Advocacy organization. I made this decision myself after dating in the US for 4 years (looking for someone that also wanted to make Aliyah). Then I decided to quit my well paying job and make Aliyah because making as much money as I can is NOT what being a Jew is all about. (I can very comfortably support a Torah family without having 3 cars in the driveway and a swimming pool in the backyard.)

Here in Israel, surrounded by the Kedushas Eretz Yisrael, I am dating girls that also made Aliyah on their own, or whose families made Aliyah. I’m finding that I’m connecting much better with them and having better dates than most of the young ladies I’ve dated in America.

As for your “just call policy” – I’m going to completely take the other side of this issue. I have the utmost respect for all volunteer Shaddchanim. Most singles don’t understand how much hard work is put in to being a matchmaker (and that if you don’t put in “enough hours” SYAS will actually kick you off the site. This happened to a friend of mine.) Most singles don’t realize that the matchmakers are, believe it not, trying to help the singles as a chessed. They don’t realize how frustrating it is when time after time they try to set singles up and time after time the singles decline.

But I don’t agree that *forcing* singles to date or call is the answer. You are not seeing things from the single’s perspective. What is the single’s perspective? Perhaps it’s been a while since you dated but shidduch dating is not always as fun and exciting as it cracked up to be! Actually it can be. But it’s not when you have to pursue every single match that is sent your way no matter how ridiculous and non-shayich it seems. That is very unhealthy – and a single will very quickly get “burnt out” from all the dates that go nowhere.

A healthier, approach to dating is yes, allowing the singles to make these important decisions as the mature adults we are. Sure, they should not be too picky and should not raise expectations too high, but they should be entrusted to affirm when they feel good about approving a match and in this way they will be more excited about dating rather than view it as a burden they have be cursed with bearing. If you don’t think singles should have any input in this decision than why bother even sending them all the profile details to begin with – they should just be given a name – a first name that is– and a number, and entirely trust the shaddchin with the rest.

And another thing – just because we are frustrated and seem so stubborn doesn’t give the matchmakers a green light to flat out ignore our preferences. I think matchmakers will find that once they start treating singles with some respect singles will treat them back with respect as well. I have made friends with many of the matchmakers on SYAS and they are all really wonderful people and they all show me respect by valuing my input and preferences and in return I usually will accept and will always value every suggestion they send me.

Finally I hope my tone doesn’t come off as too harsh. I am just not someone that sits by idle when I see something I disagree with but instead I make my view known. I want you to know that I really do appreciate all your hard work and I really sincerely thank you for thinking of me for this young lady. She does indeed look lovely and very special. But I feel there is just too wide a gap at this point to be worth pursuing. Perhaps after she makes Aliyah or at least opens her tik Aliyah and begins the process, please feel free to drop me an email.

Kol Tuv and Chag Samayach,
Pinchas

Give up. They'll never get it.

Do you know who you are? You're a "single". That alone puts you in the lower cast. And who are you to tell god the shadchan what to do?!

Only deal with those shadchanim who you like. The rest are not worth your aggravation. They don't need you and you don't need them.

Some actually do listen to you, and are respectful and helpful. For this type, your letter is a bit long and offensive. For all others, it's a waste of your mental energy. Give up on them on sight.

i want to say kol hakavod pinchas!!!
you have the correct idea. i really think that some shaddchaniot believe that b/c they have your life in their hand, they can really tell you how to date. i remember shaddchaniot like that.
i wish you a looooot of luck with your search for your zivug.
if you would like a name of a wonderful shaddchanit (she set my up with my husband:>)and she is a wonderful lady, please feel free to PM me. i think she is really wonderful........

Thanks. Sure why not? I'll PM you.

I met some really wonderful ones here in Eretz Yisrael. Really really wonderful people!

I think that rude and obnoxious people should not be allowed to become shadchanim. There should be like a license or something.

I generally understand what you are saying and this shadchan lady is probably annoying, but this is a pretty obnoxios thing to say. I understand that is your opinion and all and it may just be how you want to live your own life but it could be pretty insulting if you think everyone who lives in the Us is just out to making big bucks and go swimming. (I guess i'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you seem like a pretty sincere/ decent person from what I know)

how does she make them do that?

OMG! I haven't started to date yet. Are a lot of shadchanim like that?!

A friend of mine and her husband have set up a bunch of their friends. They even keep a list of people who are looking for a shidduch in case they meet someone who might be a good match. They live in Yerushalayim. (Also, her mother I think is a professional shadchanit- she even runs singles Shabbatons and that kind of stuff. She doesn't live in Israel, though.) You can email me (or PM me, if you'd prefer) if you're interested; I can put you in touch with them. (Btw, they're amazing people who are worth knowing even if you don't need a matchmaker! )

They must do it if they want to remain a "member" of her group. (On SYAS you need to be part of a matchmaker's group.) If they don't go along with her, she kicks them out of the group. Not really a problem because there are many other nicer and more rational matchmakers on the site as well.



I'll say it slow.

America emphasis on Gashmayus.

Eretz Yisrael emphasis on Ruchniyous.

And yes, many (though of course not all) Jews get caught up in the "American Dream" of making money. In America a person is said to be "successful" when they are wealthy. In Eretz Yisrael "success" in mentioned by other more important factors - like how well your raised you children. Rarely upon introduction in Eretz Yisrael is the very first question "Nice to meet you, what do you do?"

I agree, and this is true among the secular population in Israel too on the whole.
Having a good life means having good relationships, having a good family life, friends, enjoying life, etc.
NOT simply making lots of money (probably because it's near impossible to do in Israel, so might as well focus on the realistic goals!!)

License that can be suspended and revoked. Also, to receive the license/accreditation they'll need formal training, to pass a test, annual EU's, attend seminars, etc.
But who's gonna make shidduchim?

imho, this is all you really needed to say... the rest sounds like a rant with the matchmaker being at the blunt end...

still spamming... even in the middle of a rant

True. She was in the wrong spot and the wrong time. That actually built up already for all the matchmakers before her that got off easy... so yeah, she did get it worse from me than she probably deserved.



Doh!

I included that so she knows how serious I am about Aliyah... and that "I'll move to Israel if my barshert's there" doesn't cut it. But yeah... I should have hotlinked it not that you mention it!

wouldn't that make it more appealing though? that someone is willing to change their life for you and move to israel even if they weren't planning to in the first place?

You are crazy. Obviously a person can live in Israel but be focused on physical items and money and someone can live in the US and not care about those things. Get of your high horse and stop generalizing.
No one wants to hear about how you think you are better than them because you live in a certain location.
I don't know who you associated yourself with when you lived in the US but all of MY friends are a lot more concerned about how they raise their children than how much money they make.
So go and preach to someone else how you are better than them becuase you moved to Israel.

That's not how I edit...
NOW it's been "edited by spot"

-S

Hmm...someone feels guilty.

And I agree with you about generalizing. Read my sig... int's line.

That said the fact remains an American lifestyle is much more gashmiusdik than an Israeli lifestyle...think about it. K-Rebbe is all excited about American cheese! So many things you take for granted. And I'm sure, even now that it's available here at $20 a brick people will not be buying it as often as people do in America.

Is the level of gashmius judged by what people take for granted? Cause you could move to Kenya...

Excitement? About gashmius?

I have nothing to feel guilty about. Not sure what you are refering to.


yet you do it anyway.

More BS probably fed to you by some rebbe. Yay he gets excited about cheese. I like Israeli gummi worms. What is your point? Who the f are you (sorry spot) to say what I do or do not take for granted? I really don't take anything for granted to be honest.
Seriously, you should reevaluate your American friends. Maybe it's because you lived in NY ( I assume) that you associate with such a materialistic group of Americans.

Psychodad answer me this.

What is your heter to live in Chutz L'aretz?



No because then anything that goes wrong they will blame you and say...see I never wanted to move here - which should move back.

where is your heter to wipe your butt when you take a dump?

I would agree a Jew in Kenya would be living in less gashmious than a Jew in America. But he would also be living in less ruchnious too - much less than America.

America is not a bad place to live or raise a Jewish family. I never said it was. But when there is a place like Eretz Yisrael available I don't see how there's even a debate about the issue.

This is how I feel and I would like a wife that agrees with me and feels this way too... and judging by the fact that NBN plans at least 10 full planes of Olim the Summer, including 100's of singles (mostly females btw), I am not alone at all.

So why, Psychodad, should I get off my high horse. I'm proud that I made Aliyah. And I'm proud of everyone else that has and is as well. A Jew belongs in Eretz Yisrael.

And why does that upset you so much to the point of uttering profanities?

Is it about how much gashmius you have, or how great your focus on gashmius is?

Originally from here.

Now you answer my question.

Israel is a great place - no doubt. But, it's not for all Jews. I don't like your insinuation that people who chose to live in the US are all money grubbing and materialistic. It's just not true - if you want to make yourself think that's true to build yourself up because you need an ego boost- go ahead. Honestly it sounds like you are overcompensating for something.

The latter of course.

But in America whether you like it's much more natrual and easy to become more focused on it...again how many times when you meet someone is your knee jerk reaction - "nice to meet you. what do you do?"



Wow. That's going in the sig.

People have asked me this in Israel many times, it's just that here when I tell them "nothing" they don't have a puzzled look on their faces....

Regardless how you feel about the imporatance of living in Medinat Yisrael Reishit Tzemichat Ge'ulateinu, I think you were mixing two separate issues in your letter to the shadchanit: 1. The issue of place of domicile and realizing our potential as Jews and 2. The issue of evil shadchanim.
Since she doesn't agree with you about issue 1., your ranting and perhaps legitimate complaints about issue 2. get lost are are likely to be dismissed.
Either critisize her for her stand vis a vis aliyah, or critisize her for being a bad shadchanit, but it almost sounds like you are saying she's a bad shadchanit because of her stand vis a vis aliyah.

Ok, then I don't understand your point, especially since part of it was that K-Rebbe (sorry to pick on you) was excited about American cheese.
How often is that my reaction? Sometimes, but only because about half the people I know (my age) are in school, and half are working. It's finding common ground to make small talk about, not,, "Oh, so you're a bigshot lawyer who makes $150,000 a year."


I agree with him. (on that point.) Moving to Israel is not for all Jews, this second.

In the same vein, Israel has its problems.

In all seriousness. Why not?

eim lo achshav eimasai?



Are you saying you can't find a yeshiva or kosher food or mikvah's in Israel?

There are many factors that go into such an equation. If you would like to discuss this further, feel free to PM.

Let me rephrase that. Perhaps moving to Israel is not for everyone, now like you said. But what about wanted to move there and making a serious effort to do so as soon a external factors permit?

What about internal factors?
(And if you want to address what I was saying about about gashmious, you can do that too )

Those too.

And sure I will.

I don't even think frumkeit is for everyone. Certainly not this particular mitzvah.

No, I'm saying that the same way Kenya, despite its lack of gashmius, presents problems, so to Israel.
Incidentally, The Israelis I have met were somewhat less generous than Americans, seemingly because of the lack of gashmius.

You're assuming it's obligatory to live in Medinat Yisrael Reishit Tzemichat Ge'ulateinu. Is that what the Iggeroth Mosheh says?

sounds pretty gashmiusdik to me...

The point is Israeli society is not so surrounded by the luxuries Americans take for granted as necessities. He is excited about a luxury, true. And yes, you using that to point out that K-Rebbe is excited about gashmious (also sorry to pick on you but she started it - or did I?). But you are missing my point. We are talking about American Cheese!!! Not a Lexus! See here American Cheese (at 95NIS a brick) is a luxury. In America, American cheese is a taken for granted necessity. A Lexus is a Luxury (sometimes!?).

A Jew is not suppose to be totally void of gashmious... see the very begining of the Messilat Yesharim for more on that. But my point is in America you are so surrounded by gashmious you don't even realize you are. It is built into the very grain of the society.

And here my dh got excited that he found Israeli cheese in the store with a Badatz hechsher....

See what Rav Leff said about that here:
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol10/v10n101.shtml#14

Or if you prefer Rav Shechter here:
http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1442

I was thinking of you when I was commenting...


First of all, take for granted and necessity are two different things.
Yes, I take it for granted that I can walk 3 blocks to the store and buy American cheese. Do I need it? No. Same with cellphones. (Which, I might add, are seen much more in Israel than here.)
I disagree with you. I think that if a person isn't aware of challanges, they can fall very easily. Maybe a focus on gashmius is more present in America, but an awareness of that can help a person not to get bogged down by it. Most people just don't care enough to be aware.

That's hardly the point. The point is whether the evil shadchanit is evil for being a shadchanit, or is evil for her stance with regard to aliyah, or both. What you or I or R. Leff or R. Shechter hold or how we interpret the Iggeroth Mosheh or the Rambam or the Ramban is not relevant. What's relevant is whether this shadchanit has (valid) opinions upon whom she can rely. I would suggest she does. So soon as you castigate her for being an evil shadchanit because of her stance on aliyah and her interpretation of the mitzvah, she will say in her head, "I have (valid) opinions of rabbis upon whom I rely so this person writing to me is a nutcase zealot who cannot see that it depends whom you ask" and which point all your other critisisms of her will be seen through that prism.

Okay. Very good but the fact remain you are living in a society where is is much more natural to excel in gashmius. K-Rebbe also talks about not being able to get a decent steak. Eretz Yisrael is just not built for gashmius - America is. At the same time America doesn't have the Kotel. It doesn't have Maorat Ha'machpelah, and it doesn't have Kever Rochel. And it doesn't have thousands of other spritual sites taken staight out of the torah spread all across the country.



Now that's not fair. First of all at this point that are just as common in America and second of all it's a real safety issue to have one here.



So you believe your saviva plays no role in personal growth and a Jew in America could grow just as much as a Jew in Eretz Yisrael.

Maybe nobody should marry in chutz la'aretz.

Melech, the Shadchan's view on Aliyah is entirely irrelevant.

It's the SDJ's view that bothered me. And her view was one that was incompatible with mine IMO. And that I, and not the matchmaker should be empowered to make that call.

What exactly do you mean by frumkeit? Living in Boro Park?

Ok, I'll definitely let you have the kotel/m'aras hamachpeilah part of your argument.


Non sequitor.
I believe that a person's sviva impacts them. I also believe that different people need different things to grow, and that some need America, and some need Israel.