The gemarah writes that Shlomo Hamelach plated golden trees brought forth fruits of
gold in the appropriate season. R' Y. Emden writes (i saw it in the new gemarahs with the collection of chidushim printed in the back) that this phenomenon can also be found in the Hungerian region of Tokaj. He heard from people who saw it that the grapes in this region sometimes grew with gold nuggets inside and that some grapes grew with a thin gold layer on the outside.

Interesting but difficult to believe.

PM from Moshi:

(Torn, I don't mean you specifically)

Its kinda ironic that the h.folks would quicker give credence to neo-chasidic writers than to what R' Y. Emden wrote!

/rant

That's not the conclusion one is forced to draw.

Its not, however, it was a good place for me to vent my frustration with regards to this issue.

Careful, or TRA will yell at you for bringing agendas from other threads.

nu!

(again i dont mean torn, i mean it collectively)
but tell me please, why is it that someone can say "its hard to believe" what R' Y. Emden wrote and when a news outlet reports something he accepts it as fact?

Because growing gold is miraculous. It doesn't happen in nature. So a report that it happens in nature is not believable. Not that it can't happen, but it would have to be miraculous. There's no evidence and it staggers logic.
On the other hand, you're right that just because something is in the news doesn't mean it's true. But here's a report of something that's possible and therefore believable. If there were a book that said, "Great Chassidic Rabbi X cavorted with hookers" I don't think there would be an issue - everyone would recognize that as false. But for a great chassidic rabbi to have a mental illness to some degree? That sounds credible. It might not be true, but at least it's credible and possible and not outside the realm of possibility. Lots of people have mental illness to some degree, including great and incredible and creative personalities. We all struggle with things, and great people are sometimes able to channel their challenges. It's not a negative reflection on someone to struggle with challenges. And it's possible for tzaddikim to have mental health issues and it's possible for people with mental health issues to be great tzadikim. It doesn't mean his torah isn't great, it just means that such a person has challenges he needs to deal with. So he's human. That's believable. Unless you don't accept that tzaddikim are human, but then you've got all sorts of other problems to deal with, which may be internally consistent within chassidic thought, but which are open to objective challenge.

what you wrote would be fine, but that was not what the h.folk wrote up until yesterday. they were taking the words of the "biographers" as written and not questioning them!

I don't know what h.folk were thinking, but I don't think they were saying it's necessarily factually true with certainty, but that it's possible, whereas the h.folk on the other side of the issue were doing the same thing, just the opposite, and saying that it's not possible at all just because it's not possible and must be false, and that's when we got into the discussion that if it's a chassidic story, it must by definition be true and it's forbidden to question, and anyone who does lacks understanding of chassidut as an outsider, or something like that.

But I don't think saying "it's not possible by definition", taking chassidic lore as necessarily true, is much better than "it's true because someone said it" . Either way, either they or them, are being narrow, and either way neither is questioning.

myaccountname, do you believe that "the grapes in this region sometimes grew with gold nuggets inside and that some grapes grew with a thin gold layer on the outside" as literally true?
(By the way, a quick internet seach reveals information about the yellow grapes of Tokaj).

(and the mold- I thought that was the coolest part)

I don't know, R' Emden doesn't write that he saw it himself, just that he heard from others who've seen it. it could be that those who saw it had no clue what they saw and if R' Emden would have seen it he would come to a different conclusion. I believe that such a phenom is possible, it happened in the mikdash, and since R' Emden accepted the witnesses and decided to write about it I believe it could happen anywhere else (it would still be a miracle)

So "Interesting but difficult to believe" in the absence of a miracle, isn't that far from your own thoughts, then?

You're frustrated with people who have views not far from your own?

where'd you pick that one from? i did make it clear a few posts ago where my frustration stems from.

For the record I do not accept anything any news outlet reports as fact. Though I'll often accept it as being plausible.

it could be true. do you not believe the sambatyon exists just because youv never seen it?

You can't comapre the Sambatyon in some mysterious part of the world inhabited by shevotim to this day to gold cvered grapes growing right here in Hungary in the midst of our civilization.

At least that's in Chazal. I don't need to see something to believe it. But for me to believe it, it has to be believable to me or I need a reason to suspend disbelief, such as if Chazal say something. If Chazal said that gold grapes grow in Tokaj, that would be different. I already said above of course it could be true, but it would probably have to be miraculous. I have no problem believing gold grapes grew in Shlomo Ha-melech's time. I have a harder time automatically accepting that gold grapes grew in the empire of Ferdinand I Karl Leopold Joseph Franz Marchlin in the absence of a miracle. Of course, if you accept that all divrei Chazal are literal including midrashim, and that post-Rishonim rabbinic tales are the same as divrei chazal and that God's benificence extends not just to malchut Shlomo but to the holy Hungarian empire and its holy inhabitants, then yes, you'd have to accept that gold grapes grew in Tokaj. And I'd imagine that the same h.com member who finds evidence of the Exodus in strangely shaped Red Sea fish would find evidence for the midrash Chazal in the yellow grapes of Tokaj.

why not?


who said there wasnt?

I haven't seen the original, but from the opening post it seemed to be describing a phenomenon, rather than a one off miracle predicted by a navi.

the cause of the phenomenon was a miracle. in whosever times it occured. the navi wasnt talking about ferdinand karl etc. but it coulda happened then too.

Do you believe that gold grapes grew in Tokaj non-miraculously?
Do you believe that gold grapes grew in Tokaj miraculously?
Do you believe that gold can grow from the ground on vines and that it happened in 19th century Tokaj, Hungary, of all places?

I believe that g-d isnt limited to growing grapes made out of gold, silver, or platinum.
I believe that grapes grew in Tokaj.
I believe that if they were gold grapes they were certainly not the norm and were caused by a miracle.
I believe that g-d has nothing against hangarians, despite what people think.

Then we are in total agreement.

Its not the first time either, you know.

You didn't answer:
Do you think gold grapes with golden nuggets inside miraculously grew in Tokaj in 19th century Hungary?

If they grew they were miraculous. If they grew. I have no way of knowing forsure. If an eyewitness claims he read a sefer from an eyewitness, I guess I'd believe him.

So given what the Chiddushei R. Yaakov Emden says, as reported in the opening post, do you believe that grapes miraculously grew with gold nuggets inside in 19th century Hungary?

If you saw the sefer, and that is indeed what he wrote, then yes.

Do you think it's possible that a gadol could be given erroneous information and that a gadol could err about a non-religious matter? Here I'm thinking of the reports given to the Gra about chassidut. Or Rishonim who thought the sun orbits the earth.

It could be possible he never wrote it. I'm sure if he wrote it he wouldnt just base it on hearsay and would investigate before writing it. A gadol has siyata dishmays, and thats why he's a gadol, and thats why errors are extremely uncommon.

So why did so many rishonim think the sun orbits the earth?

thats not a religious matter. although I'm sure the rishonim were basing it on the scientists at the time, (being that they couldnt just travel to space to check.) Or maybe it does orbit the earth.

Neither are gold grapes in Tokaj a religious matter. Somebody was asking what berachah to make on them?


But I thought you said gedolim write with siyata deshemaya and it would be very unusual for them to err.
And how is their error, based on science of their time, vastly different than a single gadol in Emden erring based on a report he heard?


Do you believe the sun orbits the earth? Are you prepared to sustain that argument? And if it does, then what about the Acharonim who hold the earth orbits the sun? How did they come to err? I thought they can't. Yet somebody did - either the rishonim or the acharonim. Which was it?

Because he could go check the grapes with his own eyes, or speak to a trustworthy person who did.


Its possible that everyone is right, eilu va'eilu. We just dont know how its possible, but it exists.


Its a gemora.

What do you think Chazal and the Rishonim did? They consulted with the wise men of their generations. The gemara says so. And R. Emden didn't check with his own eyes - he says what he heard reported. So gedolim can't ever err in the reports they hear and accept?
So basically, Rishonim can err, but not R. Emden?


It can't be that both the sun orbits the earth and the earth orbits the sun. Some gedolim are right, some are wrong. By the way, have you seen what the Moreh Nevuchim has to say about Chazal and astronomy? They were working with the best of the knowledge of their time but could err. It seems you are holding Acharonim to a higher standard, that they can't err.
Or maybe the Rambam was wrong when he said Chazal can err. But then you've got yourself another problem if you think the Rambam can err but not R. Emden.

R yakov emden could ask someone who was there to receive a first hand report how could rishonim get someone to go to space to check?


They are both revolving, right? Explain every eilu vaeilu, when its 2 conradictory opinions.

In both cases it's by powers of observation: the rishonim had first hand reports from people who made the observation to the best of their abilities.

You still haven't answered: did the Rambam err when he said Chazal could err?


No.

no.
how does eilu vaelu work if one says its the opposite of the other?

So if Chazal could err, why can't Acharonim?
And why do Acharonim speak with siyata dishemaya but not Chazal?


Eilu v'eilu does not mean all contradictory opinions regarding the factual situation are simultaneously correct.

Everybody can err.


what does it mean?

But not R. Emden when repeating the report about golden nuggets growing in Tokaj?


Two legitimate interpretations of a religious matter can both be valid. But you said the structure of the solar system isn't a religious matter. Nor is it an interpretation - it's an observation of a natural phenomenon.

Its possible. but highly unlikely. He wouldnt write something unless (since he had a way) he verified it for himself


If one person interpets something as tamei and one as tahor, how can it be both? Either it touched the sheretz or not (ok not a good example, but i dont have any others)

He was reporting what he heard. Do you think he subjected the observers to a drishah and chakirah?

A combination. Would siyata dishmaya apply by non religious things? I'm not sure. But it definitely applies to religious things, and gedolim judge it to the best of their abilities (and in some cases with the help of ruach hakodesh)

But whether gold nuggets grown in Tokaj isn't a religious matter.