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Daniel
I spoke to a Dutch e-friend about this. My position is that I will stay in E"Y no matter what, as long as there is parnassa. That would be the only reason for me to leave. I am not going to be scared out of here by the Arabs. It is our fullest right as Jews to live here in Eretz Yisroel and in Yerushalaim Ir Hakodesh. That was also the opinion of Rav Y.S. Sonnenfeld zt'l. I would like to cite the following story about him.

QUOTE
On Friday, the 17th of Av, 5689 (1929), the Arabs in Israel began the infamous "riots of 1929," which culminated the next day, Shabbos, with the murder of 59 Jews -- including 29 yeshivah students -- in Hebron. After the Friday prayers at the A1-Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount ended, thousands of frenzied Moslems -- incited by the Mufti's inflammatory sermon -- marched through the Old City, exiting through Sha'ar Shechem (Damascus Gate), heading towards the Meah Shearim and Beis Yisrael quarters, and chanting "Itbah al-Yahud" ("Kill the Jews!").
Fright, bordering on hysteria, seized the women and children of these neighborhoods, as word was received of the approaching mob. The Jewish men grabbed whatever instruments they could get their hands on -- poles, axes, pipes, etc. -- to defend themselves and their homes. The few Haganah men posted at the entrance of the neighborhood were at a loss as to how to deal with the huge mob, which was making its way down St. George Street (now named Shivtei Yisrael), headed by a sword-wielding sheikh who egged them on with shouts of "Jihad!" and "No mercy on women and children! Kill all the Jews!"

Suddenly a young religious fellow emerged from the flour mill at the entrance of Meah Shearim (which served as the Haganah's guard station) and, accompanied by just one other man, confronted the approaching mass of rioters. He took out a pistol, aimed it at the sheikh, and fired one shot at his head, killing him instantly. The mob was suddenly seized with panic when they saw that their leader had been slain, and turned on their heels, running back toward Sha'ar Shechem. Several of them were trampled to death in the ensuing stampede.



The next day, Shabbos, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, [the revered Sage who lived in the Old City of Jerusalem,] had been scheduled to perform a circumcision in the Meah Shearim neighhborhood. Everyone, including the rabbi's family, took it for granted that he would not dare to undertake the perilous walk from the Old City to Meah Shearim; it was so obvious that no one even discussed it. How surprised they were, then, when Rav Yosef Chaim put on his coat after Kiddush on Shabbos morning and announced that he was going to the bris! They shouted and protested, but to no avail. Rav Yosef Chaim had made up his mind. The mitzvah of circumcision would protect him from harm for, as the Sages taught, "Those who travel on a mission to do a mitzvah will experience no harm, neither on their way there nor on their way back" (Talmud - Pesachim 8b).

Since the rabbi was already 80 years old, some of his acquaintances decided to accompany him. When they arrived at "Street of the Jews," at the end of the Jewish Quarter, Rav Yosef Chaim turned to them and told them to go back, for he saw that they were gripped with terror. As they turned to walk back home, they were shocked to see Rav Yosef Chaim head down the street leading to Sha'ar Shechem -- which was considered "treacherous terrain" even in the best of days -- rather than the safer "Bazaar Street" route, which led to Sha'ar Yafo (Jaffa Gate).

And so, following the very same path that the rioters had trodden less than 24 hours previously, the rabbi made his way toward Meah Shearim, confidently and proudly, buoyed by the happy thought that he would soon be bringing "another Jew into God's legion," as he liked to put it.



The first residents of Meah Shearim who noticed the distant black-clad figure walking down St. George Street stared in amazement and fear as the old Jew confidently strode along. As soon as they realized who it was that was coming, they burst out in shouts of joy. Within minutes, hundreds of residents assembled to greet Rav Yosef Chaim as he safely entered the neighborhood. Among them were his grandchildren, who promptly invited him to spend the rest of Shabbos with them, so that he would not have to retrace his steps through "enemy territory."

After the bris, Rav Yosef Chaim stopped by his grandchild's house to visit for a while, and then bid farewell, as he put on his hat and prepared to head home. The scene of the early morning replayed itself. The family members vehemently protested, arguing that coming to the bris was bad enough, but now there was certainly no longer any reason to undertake such a perilous journey.

Once again, however, Rav Yosef Chaim's persistence won out in the end. "Those who travel on a mission to do a mitzvah experience no harm, even on their way back," he reminded them. As he began walking down the street toward the edge of Meah Shearim, thousands of residents poured out of their houses to accompany him to the "border." When they reached the Italian hospital (now the Education Ministry, on the corner of Shivtei Yisrael and Nevi'im Streets), the crowd took their leave of the beloved rabbi and watched him as he began to walk, briskly and proudly toward Sha'ar Yafo!

Why did he insist on going to the bris through Sha'ar Shechem? he was later asked. "So that the Arabs should not think that they succeeded in driving out Jewish passersby from even one corner or street of Jerusalem!" he explained.

And why did he return through Sha'ar Yafo? "This has always been my custom, to leave the Old City through Sha'ar Shechem and to return through Sha'ar Yafo, to fulfill the verse, 'Walk about Zion and encircle it' (Psalms 48:13)!"

Rav Yosef Chaim once wrote, "I have no Torah or wisdom to my credit. The only distinction I can apply to myself is that I had the merit, by God's grace, of living my life in the Holy City of Jerusalem."

In his will, he left instructions that no one should eulogize him, and that no one should say anything more than, "Pity the loss of an old Land of Israel Jew." For Rav Yosef Chaim, that was the ultimate praise!


Source: http://www.innernet.org.il/article.php?aid=316

This story is apparently one which those affiliated with Neturei Karta tend to ignore. They see Rav Sonnenfeld as a hero, but only when it comes to his words against the Zionists. When it comes to his opinion that Jews should be able to walk anywhere in Yerushalaim Ir Hakodesh, they ignore him. This doesn't work.

While I am firmly opposed to Zionism, I am also firmly convinced of the fact that Jews should be permitted and able to live anywhere in Eretz Yisroel, including Yerushalaim. (The difference between this opinion and Zionism is that Zionism includes founding a state.)

If there will be a war, I will be in Yerushalaim. The Arabs will not scare me away from my home. I will not buy a plane ticket and run, while tens of thousands of other frum Jews do not have the money to buy clothing and food, let alone plane tickets to get out of here. I am staying with them. In the shuls where I come there are sometimes old men (up to 80 years old or so) collecting tzedaka to buy food. I am not going to run away from here while leaving them behind. No, thank you. In that case, I will die al kiddush Hashem, together with them.

What do the others think concerning fleeing from the war? (Note: I am not talking about those who move from one part of E"Y to another part, for example from Tzfas to Yerushalaim. This is about leaving E"Y altogether.)
pleats
QUOTE(Daniel @ Aug 1 2006, 10:20 PM) [snapback]618488[/snapback]

I spoke to a Dutch e-friend about this. My position is that I will stay in E"Y no matter what, as long as there is parnassa. That would be the only reason for me to leave. I am not going to be scared out of here by the Arabs. It is our fullest right as Jews to live here in Eretz Yisroel and in Yerushalaim Ir Hakodesh. That was also the opinion of Rav Y.S. Sonnenfeld zt'l. I would like to cite the following story about him.

What if your rav says to leave?
Daniel
QUOTE(pleats @ Aug 2 2006, 04:24 AM) [snapback]618491[/snapback]

What if your rav says to leave?


Then I will.
Liorah-Lleucu
to have a place in the Holy Land - I envy you
YBS
Do you rely on the Zionists to protect you well?
Because the other option is to go take a stroll around the Zionist army-free West Bank and Gaza...
Daniel
QUOTE(YBS @ Aug 2 2006, 04:42 AM) [snapback]618523[/snapback]

Do you rely on the Zionists to protect you well?
Because the other option is to go take a stroll around the Zionist army-free West Bank and Gaza...


If your friend intentionally stabs you with a kitchen knife, you would still want him to call an ambulance, right?

The Zionists caused huge trouble and now it's their responsibility to deal with and clean up the mess that they have caused. See what we've got on our hands with Lebanon now. Half the world hates us. What, half? Ninety percent, more like. Only the US government supports us. The rest of the world HATES us.

Anyway.... let's just respect each other's opinions and not fall back into previous behavior. I plan on remaining on the forum for longer than an hour or two.
Rikal
I never consider leaving and wouldn't have a rav that thinks running away ios a Jewish response in this case.

The main point is that EY is one thing and zionism is another. One is totally pure and holy and one is a human creation with its faults and virtues, like any human creation. I think those who are zionist and those who are anti are both worshipping the means. Jews who live together need takanot to have an orderly life and so they don't swallow each other. The only prob is when the takanot are deviant from the Torah.

People often say to me, "Oh you're so zionistic". If only zionists care about EY then at least part of the Charedi community have a huge lack. Note the new book by R' Wolpo. A thorough halachic refutation of zionism by a rav who devotes his life to shleimus haaretz.
Daniel
QUOTE(Rikal @ Aug 2 2006, 09:20 AM) [snapback]618801[/snapback]
Note the new book by R' Wolpo. A thorough halachic refutation of zionism by a rav who devotes his life to shleimus haaretz.


What's the title?? I need one! smile.gif wink.gif
Rikal
Bein Choshek L'Or, it is in Hebrew and written as question and answers. it is meant to offer a light for those who were disillusioned after the Aza destruction. The kids want the KBH. Orange tshirts today usually say we won't forget and won't forgive. On the back they Hashem HU Melech. These kids need clear direction when, for political reasons there is a huge campaign to reorganize them into trusting the same political frameworks that betrayed them - the DL rabbis, the parties, moetzet Yesha, the police and the army. There are people who are terrified of losing their power base as these kids become more charedi. Who will vote for Mafdal/Ichud Leumi? Who will send their kids to mamlachti dati schools or hesder? who will care about a rabbanut hechsher? There are more and more charedim in the rabbanut. How will they justify their value to their frei masters if they don't produce professors and professionals, guys go to kollel and have too many kids or they are not the source of the most combat fighters and IDF officers.
Pinchas
QUOTE(Daniel @ Aug 2 2006, 05:20 AM) [snapback]618488[/snapback]

What do the others think concerning fleeing from the war? (Note: I am not talking about those who move from one part of E"Y to another part, for example from Tzfas to Yerushalaim. This is about leaving E"Y altogether.)


Daniel - an excellent story. G-d's hand is more apparent here with everything from parnussa to safety. EY "is not like Egypt" which was irrigated by the Nile - Jews living here have to totally rely on our Father in heaven to take care of us including protecting us.

QUOTE(liorah @ Aug 2 2006, 05:39 AM) [snapback]618515[/snapback]

to have a place in the Holy Land - I envy you


Don't envy. Come.
Torn
Daniel, you may wanna consider changing your sig...
EdfromNachlaot
While I respect the Rabbi and what he did and tells in the story, it's the kid from the Flour Mill who gets my Kol HaKavod! Of course, nowadays, he'd be in Administrative Detention while the State decided on pressing charges of First Degree Murder.
The thought of leaving durng the war didn't cross my mind.
As for Zionism, if it means that the Jews have a country here called Israel, I'm all for it. Despite the fact that I'm Jewish.
Torn
QUOTE(EdfromNachlaot @ Aug 27 2006, 03:15 AM) [snapback]634465[/snapback]

As for Zionism, if it means that the Jews have a country here called Israel, I'm all for it. Despite the fact that I'm Jewish.

Despite the fact??
EdfromNachlaot
QUOTE(Torn @ Aug 27 2006, 10:07 AM) [snapback]634516[/snapback]

Despite the fact??



It's a little sarcastic humor.
melech
Although generally personal safety and avoidance of a clear and present danger takes precedence over mitvah fulfillment and therefore people feel justified in running away, in a time of shemad when the non-Jews are trying to do just that, to rid Medinat Yisrael Reishit Tzemichat Ge'ulateinu of Jews, both residents and tourists, I would think the general rule of personal safety trumping all else no longer applies.

[ok, fine, I'm a big talker and wasn't actually there during this war or previous wars. but I honestly don't think I would avoid going or staying during a war, and especially not when that's what the enemies are trying to accomplish]
Machmir
QUOTE(Torn @ Aug 26 2006, 08:31 PM) [snapback]634284[/snapback]

Daniel, you may wanna consider changing your sig...

The page is unavailable anyways....
Shoshi
Why do some people say "Zionistic" instead of Zionist?
Next, they'll be saying "Zionistical"!

If someone does not believe in Zionism or the state of Israel then I believe they should not be getting any benefits from the state of Israel such as citizenship, the right to vote, aliyah benefits, welfare benefits, health insurance benefits, etc. Not to mention army protection, for which other people actually give their lives.
Bird
QUOTE(Shoshi @ Sep 10 2006, 08:25 PM) [snapback]645691[/snapback]
Why do some people say "Zionistic" instead of Zionist?
Next, they'll be saying "Zionistical"!

If someone does not believe in Zionism or the state of Israel then I believe they should not be getting any benefits from the state of Israel such as citizenship, the right to vote, aliyah benefits, welfare benefits, health insurance benefits, etc. Not to mention army protection, for which other people actually give their lives.


And your such a Zionist that you don't even live here. And when you were you did not serve. That gives you great authority to speak on the subject. (Not saying whether I agree or not, just noting the irony)
laugh.gif
Shoshi
QUOTE(Bird @ Sep 10 2006, 02:27 PM) [snapback]645692[/snapback]

And your such a Zionist that you don't even live here. And when you were you did not serve. That gives you great authority to speak on the subject. (Not saying whether I agree or not, just noting the irony)
laugh.gif



Any child I have will be required to serve in the Israeli army.
The reason I did not serve is that the army would not take me, as I was a woman and age 29 upon aliyah.
Bird
QUOTE(Shoshi @ Sep 10 2006, 08:29 PM) [snapback]645697[/snapback]



Any child I have will be required to serve in the Israeli army.
The reason I did not serve is that the army would not take me, as I was a woman and age 29 upon aliyah.


And you still don't live here.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE(Shoshi @ Sep 10 2006, 09:25 PM) [snapback]645691[/snapback]
Why do some people say "Zionistic" instead of Zionist?
Next, they'll be saying "Zionistical"!

If someone does not believe in Zionism or the state of Israel then I believe they should not be getting any benefits from the state of Israel such as citizenship, the right to vote, aliyah benefits, welfare benefits, health insurance benefits, etc. Not to mention army protection, for which other people actually give their lives.


Why not? They pay taxes like everyone else, that gives them the right to vote and the same benefits as any other citizen. And since when was army protection contingent on ideology. The Army protects the entire country not individuals, we are all in the same boat.
Besides if we are going to start taking away citizenship and benefits I can think of a million and a quarter Arabs who aren't exactly waving any flags, at least not Israeli ones.......
Shoshi
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Sep 10 2006, 02:36 PM) [snapback]645706[/snapback]

Why not? They pay taxes like everyone else, that gives them the right to vote and the same benefits as any other citizen. And since when was army protection contingent on ideology. The Army protects the entire country not individuals, we are all in the same boat.
Besides if we are going to start taking away citizenship and benefits I can think of a million and a quarter Arabs who aren't exactly waving any flags, at least not Israeli ones.......



True dat.
ceebee
QUOTE(melech @ Sep 10 2006, 05:11 PM) [snapback]645440[/snapback]

Although generally personal safety and avoidance of a clear and present danger takes precedence over mitvah fulfillment and therefore people feel justified in running away, in a time of shemad when the non-Jews are trying to do just that, to rid Medinat Yisrael Reishit Tzemichat Ge'ulateinu of Jews, both residents and tourists, I would think the general rule of personal safety trumping all else no longer applies.

[ok, fine, I'm a big talker and wasn't actually there during this war or previous wars. but I honestly don't think I would avoid going or staying during a war, and especially not when that's what the enemies are trying to accomplish]


An interesting point. Now I want to know more about the halachos invoked on individuals during a time of shemad, what halachically defines shemad (vs. what halachically defines sakana, which is one of the reasons given in the gemarra for leaving E"Y), and how exactly we balance that with "chai bahem".

War was never declared by our government (no, I didn't serve in the army, for those of you who seem to follow the Religion Of The Army, but I do vote, pay taxes, work, and make history here). This may seem like a mere formality when it was raining katyushas daily, but since there are always millions of Arabs surrounding us wanting us to go for a long swim in the Mediterranean, where would halachah have us declare the situation 'shemad'? Are self exploding terrorists not considered to be in high enough concentration to be shemad? Are Kassams not considered explosive enough to be shemad, or only after how many years of continual bombardment? And if all of these are enough to be considered shemad in combo or alone, then can we halachically CHOOSE to move into that from the relatively shemad-free zone of the USA? (In other words, are we aveirim for making aliyah in terms of moving into shemad, Zionismistically or not).

Then I also want to know how the rules are applied not only to one's personal safety, but to one's children. If the family were in a halachic reality of shemad, but shipping children off to another country would achieve "chai bahem", would that be a halachically better course than keeping ones children in the shemad even though "that's what the enemies are trying to accomplish"? And how is that different from the parents?

I can tell you that family outside of the line of fire was particularly interested in taking a very strict stance on makom sakanah to convince us to get out a.s.a.p., whether "out" meant J-salem or in the case of overseas relatives, back to the USofA. I personally did not introduce the topic of shemad or "what the enemies are trying to accomplish" into the equation, I just tried to weigh in on sakanah and practicalities.

Frankly, I have a verrrrrrrrry hard time with the "what the enemies are trying to accomplish" bit. Hashem is trying to accomplish something via the kind of enemies He is sending us. I'm more than interested in understanding the halachic ramifications of situations such as those many found themselves in during the war, but will have to be convinced that "what the enemies are trying to accomplish" is part of the halachic equation in such cases. They're always trying to accomplish our annhilation and the extermination of the State of Israel (may we be blessed with real leaders and real judges and real police bimheira b'yameinu). So how is it suddenly more shemad during a war than before ?

p_almonius
QUOTE(melech @ Sep 10 2006, 04:11 PM) [snapback]645440[/snapback]

Although generally personal safety and avoidance of a clear and present danger takes precedence over mitvah fulfillment and therefore people feel justified in running away, in a time of shemad when the non-Jews are trying to do just that, to rid Medinat Yisrael Reishit Tzemichat Ge'ulateinu of Jews, both residents and tourists, I would think the general rule of personal safety trumping all else no longer applies.

Is a gezerat shemad any attack, or is it restricted to an effort to forcibly convert the Jews? Would the prohibition be merely on leaving Israel, or would it also prohibit moving out of range of the rockets, as that would help our enemies rid one part of Israel of Jews? If one was visiting Israel and a war broke out, would one be required to stay?
naftush
[quote name='p_almonius' date='Sep 11 2006, 07:11 AM' post='646139']
Is a gezerat shemad any attack, or is it restricted to an effort to forcibly convert the Jews? Would the prohibition be merely on leaving Israel, or would it also prohibit moving out of range of the rockets, as that would help our enemies rid one part of Israel of Jews? If one was visiting Israel and a war broke out, would one be required to stay?
naftush
QUOTE(p_almonius @ Sep 11 2006, 07:11 AM) *
Is a gezerat shemad any attack, or is it restricted to an effort to forcibly convert the Jews? Would the prohibition be merely on leaving Israel, or would it also prohibit moving out of range of the rockets, as that would help our enemies rid one part of Israel of Jews? If one was visiting Israel and a war broke out, would one be required to stay?

Goldfish
I don't live in Israel but whenever I've visited I've never shied away from going to Kever Rachel and Maarat Hamachpela even though I know people who live in Israel who refuse to go there.

The general stat is that more people in Israel are killed in car accidents than in terrorist attacks, so please don't blow the whole "danger" thing out of proportion. Now, if you lived in Sderot, would you move somewhere else -- that's a better question.
p_almonius
I only clicked on your Word file because I thought you might have a document taken from somewhere else, that was difficult to paste into a plain message. I did so, and found that you had simply written your post in Word, and attached it.

Should you wish to continue this discussion, you will either learn to use this site, or I will ignore you from now on. The choice is yours.
p_almonius
QUOTE(Goldfish @ Jul 2 2007, 06:40 PM) *
I don't live in Israel but whenever I've visited I've never shied away from going to Kever Rachel and Maarat Hamachpela even though I know people who live in Israel who refuse to go there.

The general stat is that more people in Israel are killed in car accidents than in terrorist attacks, so please don't blow the whole "danger" thing out of proportion. Now, if you lived in Sderot, would you move somewhere else -- that's a better question.

I do not refuse to visit graves (wherever they might be located), but nor do I visit graves unless it's for a funeral or unveiling. I do my davening in shul. I was in a car recently, we came to an intersection in the Negev where two roads went to Jerusalem, the one passing through Chevron was nearly half the length of the one passing through Beersheva. We exchanged some black humor about the dangers of traffic vs. terror and unanimously decided in favor of the long road.

I think that many people who live in Sderot cannot simply pick up and leave, unless they wish to be homeless. There probably aren't many people looking to buy houses in Sderot now, so even if they own their homes, they couldn't sell them and buy elsewhere. Many people in Sderot are in public housing (highly subsidized), and cannot choose to relocated (unless again, they want to be homeless). There was an article in an Israeli paper about a woman who wants to move to public housing but the people in charge wouldn't approve her request to transfer to a different location. I can't say what I would do if I lived there, but not living there, I'm not planning any visits in the immediate future.

Someone told me that during the second Lebanon War, students at Livnot Ulehibanot in Tzfat were helping people in Tzfat and Kiryat Shmoneh. I was both impressed, and wondered if I would have done that myself. The most dangerous thing in Tzfat when I was there was the world's deepest pothole, on Rechov Yerushalaim ...
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