Why is it that one of the first things many girls do once they are becoming more religious is start wearing the long skirts? It seems like sometimes the skirt comes before they even adopt any of the real INTERNAL tenants of tznius! They may not even light candles, or keep strict kosher... but they have the skirt, so now they're officially frum. Shouldn't there be a lot of things that come before the skirt?

There should be but most of the other stuff is internal. Here people will see that they look frum. I agree with you 100%.

Not necessarily. I belive that people should first adopt the mitzvos they're most comfortable with. If they're up to wearing a skirt before they're up to keeping shabbos fully, it's not my place to tell them they shouldn't.

Many want to fit in, and changing a mode of dress is a relatively easy way to do this. It identifies them as part of a group.

At what point do you say "it does not matter what you're comfortable with, you must observe everything"?

When they have some understanding and know more rules. We don't want them to become these machmir BT who do it just cause they do'tknow better.

Because an otherwise frum girl who still wears pants is considered a "shiksa", but someone who wears a skirt and might not yet but up to par in other areas of observence will be cut some slack.

But even besides that, it is a clear easy step to identify with being frum. Like a guy deciding to wear a yarmulke or tzitzis all the time. It makes a statement, "I am frum", or at least I identify with Torah Judaism and am trying to integrate it into my life as much as possible.

I totally disagree. These people aren't trying to fool anyone into thinking they are frummer than they are (ok, maybe some are, but this isn't how I see it), they are just taking on the mitzvos in an order that might not make sense to you, but works for them

The idea of "change the outside, and the inside will follow" has a lot of truth to it-- If you're in a bad mood, smile, and your mood just might change. Dressing tznius will make you feel more aidel and jewish, and lead to more involvement in the "internal" mitzvos.

No.

So you are saying it will lead them to afrum life through making them want to do more?
I agree with K Rebbe, they don't want to be outcast. They can wear a skirt as its easy and will try slowly with kashrus etc....

But if you don't know WHY you're doing any of these things, it seems sort of pointless to me. I get the point about doing what you're comfortable with first, but it seems to be more of a social thing. They put on the skirt because they want to be accepted in certain circles as a legitimate member, not because they understand it has to do with not showing the outline of their thighs.

So once you learn all the rules, it doesn't matter if you're still uncomfortable, you should take all of them on?

Don't you think the skirt MEANS something though? Like now they're dressing the part, they sort of have to walk the walk.

You should as not everyone will always feel comfortable. It comes to a stage of now or never.



It means that they are willing to walk the walk. It is a sign on them trying. Its one of the few ways a lady can show she is tying to be frummer.

So once you've completed the Artscroll Hilchos Shabbos book or whatever, this is the point when you can no longer say "I'm not comfortable doing xyz" without being judged as a shabbos violator, but until then you can say it and people will look at you with understanding?

Not with complete understanding but they will still respect you. They know that you don't know better and that you are trying.

"you are what you wear"

As I sit in my room with a T-shirt thats what type of a person I am? Even though during the day I wear suites? Please. Clothes don't make the person they just make an impression.

I'm trying to understand when/how this transformation in status occurs.

In my little corner of the world, many boys that come into Yeshiva jump right away into wearing the most frum looking outfit they can find. This means buying a long coat and black hat. They start growing peiyot and all the other stuff.

Many times these things happen before they have made any major leap in their understanding of Torah.

I am major against this type of behavior as I see that many of these students feel so comfortable after they adopt this garb, that the drive to learn is sometimes muted.

On the other hand, adopting some form of minimal uniform should be a good sign. so to with your question. I believe that someone that is willing to adopt at least wearing that level of the uniform(not getting into the pants vs skirt issue) is a good sign.

The diference between the two cases is vast. Im sorry but one is not Halacha.They do it cause they want to look frummer. They already look frum. When they change garb its to show off
With the girl she is trying to show that she is becoming Frum and is trying. When she chages looks its to show look I relize its better to be frum.


When they have the knowledge that they can overcome most problems. Not everyone will know the answer to everything but when they feel comfortable which is when they have knowledge.

You can learn hilchos Shabbos and still not be comfortable.

i think its how you think of yourself and where you hold in judaism, and where you live.
a more liberal jew, who knows where he holds in life and feels comfortable wearing wtvr may suit him/her, this doesnt contradict tznius bc they do not think they hold with it.
if a bt, knows where she/he is holding and and chooses to wear a long skirt/short skirt, very nice- at the momant it doesnt make much of a difference in the fashion world wtvr lenght of skirt.
now, if this same bt, lives in a place where it is not so liberal, she might have to conform to the dresscode, which might b a long skirt, wouldnt it be awkward for her to dress otherwise?

You can progress as slowly as you want to, you just can't regress. I don't know why that is, exactly, but that seems to be the way things work.

Interesting. How slowly is too slowly?

It still has to be progress so I guess not that slow.

seems vague.

and why is this thread triggering post-partum depression ads?

I've noticed a trend in frum young women's fashion towards the 1) high boot + 2) 'cargo' skirt look.

Anyone else?

Each peson has to judge on his/her own when they are ready for a change. They also have to be realistic with it.

I like this.


I'm not wearing anything.


It's that time of season, just ladies, please don't wear the slouch boots unless you can see the top of the boot. Skirts should not reach past the top of a slouch boot, leave one or two inches of skin showing.

To quote society (not Gretchen) : "You are what you wear".

I need my sleep. Do't get me started on you again.

I'm not sure how to take that.

mosheshmeal
.

Not you but Gretchen.

Yes, that's for sure.

mosheshmeal
.

So, if a BT who wears a denim skirt is overnight frum, is a woman who wears jeans somehow less religious just because of how she dresses? what does that say about our society?

In certain areas I would agree with Gretchen but in general you wear what you are camortable in. By wearing a skirt you are not "over-night frum" but rather expresing your desire to join the frum community.

I think a person should be encouraged whenever they decide to do an individual mitzva. I think whoever is teaching them or helping should gently speak to them if they are trying to do too much. Different things come easily to different people. If most of us BT waited to have all our opinions and attitudes straightened out we would never get to tznius at all. It is a 2 way street. You dress frum -you feel frum, you feel frum - you want to know and improve. Also, most BT places require some kind of tznius if you are a regular, registered student and not an off and on or drop in. A person's feelings or committment must have some grounding in action or it will dissapate.

In an org that I helped with fundraising they have this multi million $$ gvir. He lives like a goy gmur in chutz but feels very Jewish. So he gives his money to Chabad. Once they brought him to a shul on a week day and gave him an aliya. He said he needs one of those "begedim with the strings". The shaliach didn't understand. He was wearing a tallis gadol. The gvir pointed to a kid and said, "Those, under the shirt". The shaliach assured him he could have an aliya w/o but he would get him a pair right after shul. He called on his cell that someone should bring a pair of mehudar tzitzis to the shul. When he put them on the rav tucked in the tzitzis (maybe he thought its less embarassing for someone not frum, maybe because the gvir is Sefardi). He didn't agree. Little kids wear them out and he has to hide them? Does the shaliach think he's embarassed he's Jewish? Very indignant. To this day the gvir wears his tzitzis, is bare headed and now gives all of his money to Jewish frum education. Go know what talks to each Jew.

Why can't people announce their halachic observance and commitment to the community by pinning medals to their shirts for each act of chesed they do?

Boy scouts? Um cause some people would have like no medals and they wlak around with beards and hats.

I think someone could make serious money reselling merit badges, packed with Hebrew labels and haskamot.

Shechita
Shmita
Basement businesses
Saying over other people's Divrei Torah
Sukkah building
Not saying kiddush at 6PM
Shiluach hakan
Laws of sheratzim
Cleaning vegetables
Mashiv haruach umorid hageshem
Not seeing movies
Not reading newspapers
Shelo asani goy
Frummer-than-thou
Kollelnik
Traffic laws are for goyim
Doesn't use the internet
Has own generator
Does not walk under the Arch of Titus
My son is a doctor


My other son is a lawyer
Follows Beit Shammai
Doesn't shake hands with women
Neigel vasser
Won't live in Israel, but visits a lot
Daf yomi on the subway

And of course a man can't wear a woman's badge or the other way around, so
Cooking
Baking
Instant messaging
Weight loss
Making kippot serugot
Not
a feminist, chas veshalom
Please read my blog!
Will travel for shidduchim
Never goes mixed swimming
Acted in plays in seminary. Never seen a play in a real theater.
Yichus
Will not date a boy who isn't at least four inches taller than I am in heels.
Do you want to see a photo of my nieces and nephews?
Knows all the Israeli dances that came out before the year I frummed out.

Will work to support kollel husband.
Kol isha
Asks my rabbi about everything
No lashon hara.
Wants to have a bigger family than will fit on this patch.
Shomeret.
Not planning to have sex the night of my wedding.

p_almonius, that was brilliant. Beyond brilliant.

When do we start? I want some badges.

Plaques are nicer and more permanent.....

Very good one!

to add my $0.02, i wear skirts but sometimes eat veggie out, and don't adhere to other more important tznius principles, etc., etc.
so sometimes i think, it's hypocritical to wear skirts while i'm still doing these other things.
then someone told me that it was my yetzer ha'ra talking, and i should still wear only skirts, and not switch to pants because i'm not doing EVERYTHING right now.
also, skirts are cute, it's not such a hard mitzvah to keep. but i wear the tight skirt/boot combo. the floor-sweeper/keds combo is not quite as flattering!