Machon Shilo Publishes Special Tisha B'Av Kinna Commemorating the Destroyed Communities of Gush Katif and the Northern Shomron

JERUSALEM, ISRAEL, July 18, 2007 (Menachem-Av 4, 5767) - Machon Shilo has published a dirge ("kinna") about the destroyed communities of Gush Katif and northern Samaria. The dirge is to be recited as part of the Jewish Ninth of Av Service that commemorates the destruction of the First and Second Jewish Temples by the Babylonians in 586 CE and by the Romans in 70 CE.

The Jewish Communities of Gush Katif and the northern Samaria were destroyed on the Tenth of Av in 2005. The motivation of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in destroying these communities has been the subject of considerable speculation.

The dirge was written in the style of Rabbi Eliezer HaKalir, the 16th century composer of religious poetry. Rav Buch's dirge is based on "How the Rose of Sharon Sits", HaKalir's dirge of 24 stanzas about the 24 shifts of the Priests ("Kohanim") in the Jewish Temple ("Bet HaMiqdash"). Words of the Rabbi Buch's dirge are borrowed from Rabbi Eliezar's original version as well as from the first chapter of the Book of Lamentations ("Megilat Eicha"). The stanzas are arranged according to the Hebrew alphabetical order and the last line of each stanza ends with the name of a destroyed community.

"This is religious poetry that truly speaks from the heart. It eloquently captures the feelings of the day, of both the destruction of our Holy Temple and the holy communities of Gush Katif and northern Samaria," says Rabbi David Bar-Hayim, the head of Machon Shilo.

"Many words in the dirge have double meanings and reflect the bitterness caused by this modern tragedy. Rabbi Buch has expended great effort to adhere to the historical style of the traditional dirge. All words of his dirge—except for one—are found in the Hebrew Bible although grammar may have necessitated some slight changes. My only regret is that Rabbi Buch's beautiful poetry reflects our current state of mourning rather than celebration. I look forward to the day when we will be able to publish poetry celebrating the rebuilding of the destroyed communities and our Holy Temple."

The dirge can be downloaded from the Machon Shilo website at http://machonshilo.org/PDF/Machon_Shilo_Gush_Katif_Kinna.pdf

About Machon Shilo
Machon Shilo seeks to promote the study of the customs and practices of our forefathers and Rabbis, who lived in Erets Yisrael. Machon Shilo believes that while the Jewish People have physically returned to their ancestral homeland, Erets Yisrael, they have not yet returned to the Torah of Erets Yisrael, only to the learning of Torah in Erets Yisrael. For more information visit www.machonshilo.org.

I thought we got rid of those lunatics.

Why don't you stop the name-calling, and put your "halachic sources" where your mouth is?

I'll tell you why.... Because you and any other antagonist doesn't have any.

Let me be perfectly clear.... I said "halachic," not "hashqafic."

But, this isn't even really an issue is it? Reading an additional sad peace of poetry on Tisha b'Av? I defy you to explain to me why that's assur,...even more so, I defy you to tell me why this not very appropriate.

Better yet, why don't you write to Rav Buch, and explain to him the answers to those questions I just asked you?

He can be reached at: harav@machonshilo.org

It's really worth checking out this kinnah. Each stanza mentions one of the uprooted communities. It's written in a style reminiscent of some of the more traditional kinnot. Too bad that current events continue to provide us with subject matter for new kinnot, but unfortunately, they have. I cried a couple of times reading it last year. The expulsion was a real tragedy that continues to take it's toll, both on those expelled and on the rest of us living in an Israel that is more dangerous because of it. See the link in Ya'aqov's original post.

I should pick one up for Purim, those people never should have been there to begin with and moved there knowing there was a risk they could get booted. If anything it may lead to some sort of eventual cease-fire so the removal of these communities may look like the beginning of a new wonderful and peaceful era.

I feel bad for these people but I feel worse for everyone else in Israel that has to put up with constant terror in part because of the radical rights instance that the only way to deal with the problem is to drop a bomb on them or beat them into submission. If we would have struck a deal right away and not kept the land life in Israel would be a lot better....

I should print out your comment for Purim.

Struck a deal with WHOM?? Israel captured that land from Jordan and Egypt, and Israel TRIED giving Gaza back to Egypt but they wholeheartedly refused. Jordan also isn't so keen on getting the West Bank back either. They are much happier letting Israel deal with the mess there and not having to grant the "palestinians" citizenship. Not to mention that the international community never recognized Jordan's claim to the land so in essence it was "hefker" (unless it still belonged to its last rightful owner Brittan, or maybe even Turkey).

So who should we have made a deal with??? Who should we have given the land BACK to??? There WERE no "Palestinians" in '67 (and certainly no leadership) when we captured the land and the countries we captured it from didn't want it back, England left and gave up sovereignty and Turkey was long out of the picture...... The whole concept of "Palestinians" and Palestinian independence didn't even exist yet.... There wasn't even anyone to talk to..

And Egypt, with whom Israel has a peace treaty, is allowing Hamas to bring 40 tons of explosives a day into Gaza.

is there any hope for the jews?

I have just about come to the conclusion that there isn't...
It is 100% pure Chasdei Hashem that we are still around.

There's always hope for the Jews. That we are still around through Hashem's Chesed is part of that hope. Each one of us must do whatever we can - to be the Noach, the Avraham, the Pinchas in one's generation; to do what's right in the face of all that's wrong.

The problem is that most Noachs, Avrahams, and Pincases never live to tell their stories....

Enough of them do. And even if they don't, many of their stories are told by others. Like Avraham Stern. Plus we have the original stories in TaNaCh.

I don't know, I know more than a few who have tried and failed... Not everyone is zoiche to come out of the firey furnace unscathed
At the end of the day sometimes I wonder whether it is "worth it" or not, and think to myself "maybe the haredim are right" all we can do is sit on our collelctive tuchases, worry about our own personal avodas Hashem, and hang on for dear life until Moshiach comes...

How do you know when to be a Pinchas or Mattisayahu and put everything on the line, or when to be a Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakai and cut your losses and save whatever you can?

To revise a famous saying, maybe it's better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all. But one should only jump in knowing that they have a fighting chance, unless they are totally relying on Siyata DiShmaya...



I'm struggling with that question a lot myself lately. I've been moving from a more passive haredi lifestyle to a more activist non-haredi one, and it's socially challenging and personally frightening. But it seems right - for now. So I printed up and passed out 1,000 of these kinnoth at the Kotel and at shuls in my neighborhood. Felt like it was something to do.

BTW, did you write "collelctive tuchases" on purpose (i.e. "kollel"), or was it just a Freudian shlip?



Yes, that's one of the big questions. Seems like when you're the one who has to know, somehow, you know...

That's only true when the choice is to do something or nothing, but when you can do something "crazy" or something less drastic (and less effective) but less potentially dangerous how does one decide?? If everyone goes out in a blaze of glory there is no one to teach, spread the word, recruit other people, work for slow change etc....


Which you wouldn't have been able to do if you were G-d forbid dead or in jail....


Completely by accident, in fact if there is one thing I'm SURE of it is that the "kollel derech" is NOT the right way... There is work to be done, and sitting and being melpapel in toesfos is not going to hasten its completion..... When moshiach comes there will be plenty of time for Kollel....


I'm not so sure you do. Jeramiah did because G-d told him, but even Raban YBZ went to his grave not sure he made the correct choice. Then there is Chur an Aharon HaKohen. Chur stood his ground and was slaughtered on the spot, Aharon reasoned that if HE were to be killed there would be no stopping what would happen, and who knows how many Jews he saved by his actions?

What about people like Baruch Goldstein, Eden Natan Zada, Asher Visgan, the "Bat Ayin terrorists", Jewish Underground, Yigal Amir, Ami Popper, etc??? Did they make the correct choice?? On one hand they were mekadesh sheim shamayim (or tried), had the best kavannah in mind but all of them paid a heavy price and seemingly nothing has changed. I'm sure it made quite a raash in shamayim, but not enough, and it didn't inspire the masses to follow suit. Perhaps they would have been better off following a more modest path?? Then again, THEY did what everyone else is afraid to do, and what many people know in their hearts needs to be done, so how can they be blamed for not succeding. That part was in G-d's hands.....

All of the above are reshaim, we can't know what twisted intentions inspired the ones who died by the same violence they lived by, but the ones who survived are either silent, or defile the air with which they speak, and the only positive thing that can be said about those who admire them but are too cowardly to follow in their footsteps is that Hashem does not judge people for sins they would like to commit, but haven't. The graffiti and the shahid posters of rasha #2 are a different story.

I'm currently on trial for "sedition" for allegedly hanging those posters.....

You're right - it's a hard call. But Hashem won't let everyone go out in a blaze of glory - There will always remain a Righteous Remnant through which He must prevail.



Well, a lot of people seem to think that the "dead" (at least the tzaddikim among them) can and do have a great hashpa'ah on what goes on in the world of the "living". Like they often say in eulogies, "Melitz yosher". And jail doesn't seem to stop people like Marwhan Bargouti from getting a lot done (as long as you have a cellphone, I guess...).



Maybe there are those who can't do more than the kollel derech, so that is their real contribution. Probably not as many who would like it to be so.

So if there is work to be done, then how do you determine who should do it?



I didn't claim to know what to do - halavai that Hashem would tell me, too, or let me know some other way. And maybe Chur had to die for Aharon's strategy to succeed.



Doesn't matter necessarily if there doesn't seem to be any change. It could all be undercover for now. Similarly, I wouldn't be so quick to decide that the ra'ash they made was not enough. Things could be worse if they hadn't done what they did. We don't really know. I lean more towards your "then again" version.

Wow - it's good to know that we have such a qualified and self-confident dayan gracing our site. What about the theory that Goldstein and Amir were set up? Or that Zada was mentally unstable and was used? Or that the others were "freedom fighters" fighting in a justified resistance? Would you say that the Maccabis were also rasha'im for resisting? Or was that OK, because they were fighting the goyim?

Amir admits to the murder, that's not good enough for a beit din, but it's perfectly sufficient for calling him a murderer. If you think the charge that Goldstein did it on purpose is false, sue the authors of "Baruch Hagever" for libel. And do you have evidence that Zada was a shoteh by the standards of halacha?

You can't have it both ways. If they're victims of setups, they're not heroes. But you didn't object when they were called heroes a few posts ago. Perhaps you could get a psak from your rav: heroes or patsies?

And what about the claim that the others were 'freedom fighters'? Well, what about the claim that Fatah and Hamas are 'freedom fighters'? Are they only evil because they are fighting us? I happen to believe that blowing up a bus of civilians is evil, irregardless of what organization or state the perpetrator belongs to.

The government in the time of the Maccabim was forcing Jews to worship idols and eat pork in public. Know of anything like that today?

To return to the subject of the kinnah itself, here is a blog reaction.

Here's a short excerpt.



And see the comment that says that this kinnah has the effect "fomenting hatred between Jew and Jew".

So it wasn't as bad as what Shalman’eser, Nevukhadnetzar, Vespasian and Titus, etc. did - does it therefore not deserve a kinnah? For those who it happened to, it was bad enough, and worse davka because it was fellow Jews who did it.

As you are the self-proclaimed judge of evil, so is Steg the self-proclaimed judge of suffering and death. Ya'aqov Avinu knew that he was considered "dead" by having all of his wealth taken away from him. That's basically what happened here. Except that Ya'aqov agreed; the exiled settlers didn't. Instead, they watched years, lifetimes of dedicated idealism and hard work looted and destroyed by our laughing enemies in days. And the lives of most of them are still in ruins. I think that that at least deserves a kinnah - don't you?

Someone who commented on Steg's post said:



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You must have looked pretty hard to find Steg; here's a few talkbacks from the YNet article about the kinnah, all of which were supportive (at

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3428316,00.html)

(I left out most of the praise for Machon Shilo and RBH)

Here's some postings from a thread that was active a few months before the expulsion:

http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?showtopic=9217&hl=



Search Google for "who killed Rabin?" and look at some of the non-official links. As for Goldstein and Zada, that's just what I remember hearing - can't bring supporting evidence right now.


Yes.


They don't differentiate between civilians and the military - maybe we shouldn't either (depends what the Torah says about it). And is anyone really a civilian on either bus? Neither side wants the other to be here, so anyone from the other side who is, is perceived as an enemy.



Well, the Govt today allows and encourages Jews to be secular like the other nations, and to give in to their desires for forbidden worship, food, relations, etc. And they did actively encourage religious Jews to abandon their religious practices. Not so much different in practical terms from what happened then.

I don't know who killed Rabin, but Yigal Amir certainly WANTED to, and tried even if he was "set up" and Rabin was disposed of on the way to the hospital... IMHO even if he didn't do it, machshave tovah metztaref lemaase....

The theories that Goldstein was "set up" really don't hold much water.

I knew Eden Natan Zada personally, he was no basket case or deranged zealot. He was very contemplative and thought long and hard before he did anything. What happened on that bus (or why he was even there), I don't know. But he was not brainwashed and dispached to kill Arabs for nefarious political purposes.

I thought you were against judging. Or are you only against judging Jews who kill non-Jews? Could I have your opinion of Ariel Sharon or Ehud Olmert, if you don't like talking about a person who can't defend himself? Neither are favorites of mine, so fire away.

I didn't realize that only popular opinions could be posted here. I in fact did not look for Steg at all, his blog is one of the many to which I'm subscribed.

This is an open discussion site. If you want a site where you can discuss the Pinchas fantasies (that you know you'll never realize in real life because your spear is too short), I'm sure there's a site where they don't let people like me in.

I'm not really talking to you. There's no point in discussing anything with a person who would even consider the possibility that the only thing wrong with blowing up a bus is the identify of the passengers, and will have to do some Torah study before reaching a final conclusion. I'm only replying because I don't want some impressionable visitor to think that your vile opinions are shared by all Jews, or even by many.

I don't even think much "Torah study" is necessary. The Torah's position on Enemy nations, and what is to be done with them is pretty clear.....
Now true, there were no buses back then but I don't think it is much of a stretch...

Unless your objection is that we should confiscate the bus as BOOTY and ENSLAVE all the women and children passengers instead of killing them, and not doing so may be in the geder of "baal tashchis", but somehow I don't think that was your point.......

Thank you, K Rebbe.

Briefly, I would just say that they, like many other non-Torah minded Left leaning leaders, are obsessed with the current Western mindset of appeasement, negotiations ad nauseum, and Anything-For-Peace-Now, even if history and the experts show that peace most likely won't come out if it. I'm not against judging - just judging that demonizes anyone who challenges the powers that be and gets a little bloody in the process, or minimizes a justified sensitivity to and recognition of the real suffering of modern day Tisha B'Av victims.


You can post your opinions - I'm just disagreeing with them.


Sorry. I meant that his seems to be a minority opinion.


No, I think that many people like this kind of an open site because they can hear many different kinds of opinions, and try to influence those who don't think like them to change their outlook (hashkafah).

What Pinchas did was no fantasy for him, and it in fact saved the Jewish People from a much greater plague. I think that everyone deep down would like to be sure enough of him/herself and the Emes to be able to be a Kanoi for Hashem like Pinchas was. Our problem is not that our spears are too short, but that they are too blunt, because we don't know how to sharpen them properly, and even if we did, we wouldn't know where to stick them. A site like Hashkafah can help a person sharpen the spear of their outlook (spear = saper, i.e. response, talkback, etc.)

-------------------------------------------


Imagine the following scenario: you are Avraham Avinu, and Hashem has just asked you to offer up your son, your only son, the son that you love etc. Based on your reaction here, your reaction then would have been something like this:


The point is that God is God, and He knows what's supposed to be and what's supposed to be done, even if it may seem vile to our tainted minds. He told us to wipe out the Canaanite Nations and Amalek; to kill the false prophet, the adulterer and the Shabbath transgressor; to do lots of things that we wouldn't do otherwise. God spoke to Avraham directly; He speaks to us through His Holy Torah.

Believe me, I would have never considered blowing up a bus regardless of who the passengers were, based on my pacifist, peaceful, love-everybody upbringing. But now that I try to aspire to be one who's guide is God's Torah, I want to know what the Torah says about this, as unpleasant a prospect as it may be. Not that I could bring myself to do it, but at least to know what to think about someone who could...

An impressionable visitor has the right to know what the Torah reality really is, not what many or most Jews think reality should be, based on foreign hashkafoth.


** from what I remember, Avraham Avinu was born in 1948, and was 100 at the birth of Yitzhaq, who was then 37 at the time of the Akedah. That brings it to 2085 years after Creation, or 1675 BCE. Correct me if I'm wrong...

And I happen to be in favor of judging people who shed the blood of others - if someone wants to challenge the powers that be, let them take out ads in the newspapers, or hold a protest. Murder is not a form of free speech.

I do not wish anyone to achieve the level of clarity that will lead them to murder. And by "your spear" being too short I mean the part of your body that corresponds to where Pinchas' spear passed thru Zimri.

There is no Israeli psychiatric hospital that doesn't have a patient who is convinced he's someone from Tanach. But if we're going to deal in hypothetical, here's what I suspect your answer would have been: "Kill? Son? Why stop at one? Can I kill my other son, too? I'll throw in my slave for good measure. I'll kill my neighbors sons, too. That's a lot of people to kill, got any brimstone left over from Sodom I can use?" Oh sorry, it would have been "God, I wish I had the balls to even knick my son with the knife, but if someone else slaughtered an entire city for You, I'd praise them".

Just as I said, spear too short.

Even something like what Pinchas did? Was that unjustified murder?


I suspected that that's what you meant, but I didn't imagine that you would be so indiscreet and indecent. How on earth does that have anything to do with what I said? I call foul on that one!


Please - I didn't mean that you really think so!


Well, no - I never said to do more than God wants, but just what God wants. That's really a pretty silly hypothetical...


I'm just being honest - even if I think it's right, I don't know if I could do it. But to knick with the knife - I didn't imply that I couldn't do that. And if God wants someone to slaughter an entire city, why shouldn't I praise them even if I couldn't? My mashal reflects what you said; yours is just an exaggeration.

We should all know, do and be satisfied with what we're capable of in 'avodat Hashem - not more, and not less.

No, but only because God told us so. Since prophecy has ceased (as well as a clear connection between sin and punishment), no one can be that certain that they are right.

This is not a friendly conversation.

I've been away for a few days...


But Pinchas himself didn't do it because God told him so - he did it because he knew that it was the right thing to do, and only afterwards was he validated by God's approval and reward. Granted, it may be harder today to know for sure, but in some situations, I suggest that one can be sure, or at least, sure enough.


Well, it's true that it has become an unfriendly one, and I'm sorry for whatever I've contributed to that situation. I'm for re-friendly-izing if you are. But I still don't understand what was so friendly or appropriate about your "short spear" comment.

The asylums are also full of people who know for sure. If you are that sure yourself, ask your doctor for a psychiatric referral. If your teachers are that sure, run, the damage may not yet be irreversible.

Not interested. I have no friends who praise murderers. Or totally lacking in reading comprehension - what the bleep makes you think I've ever been trying to be civil to you?

Yes, put there, surely, by people who were sure that they should be there. Just to remind you of what K Rebbe said earlier (my emphasis),


Although that statement doesn't apply to "Palestinians", because they aren't, and shouldn't be a nation. They are just thorns in Israel's side, used by real Israel-hating nations to hasten our destruction, R"l. The Torah already warned us about them - that they would be sent if we don't observe the Torah.


So are Israeli soldiers also murderers, since they kill downtrodden and deprived freedom-fighters who launch kassam rockets? Or is that different, because they actually DO something to attack us, while most of the others only WISH that they could and SUPPORT those that do?


I mistakenly thought that you were upset that "this is not a friendly conversation", not that you were proud of it. Sorry.


I didn't say that I was sure of myself; I said that "in some situations, I suggest that one can be sure, or at least, sure enough." I don't claim to be that one, although I wish I was. Who's lacking in reading comprehension now?

The guy who hung up a poster in memory of a murderer (but no one saw him do it) is your compass for sanity?

Soldiers who kill enemy combatants are not murderers. Were there to be a soldier (hypothetically, I don't know if this has ever happened) who killed a civilian for only wishing he could attack us, or for expressing approval of those who do, he would be a murderer.

Given the choice of getting my hands dirty vs. allowing my revulsion for you to cause me to leave you on your soapbox unopposed, I choose the former. With nausea, not pride.

I am unfamiliar with a pathology where a person wishes he was insane. I'll have to do some more reading.

No, but I think that the main confusion here is in our different definition and usage of terms. I think that we both agree that the unnecessary killing of innocent people is called murder. the question is, what is "unnecessary", and who is "innocent"? My criteria, as I've said all along, is what the Torah says about the issue. I don't get the feeling that that is your criteria. If the Torah would say something that goes against your "better" sense, it seems like you would go with that sense, even if it's non-sense according to the Torah. Granted, it's not always clear what the Torah says about something, and there we have to be careful, and not err in the wrong direction. But even the direction of the erring is debatable.


I disagree. The Torah credits the intention of a goy (and I would suggest to add, even more so an ENEMY goy) as if he actually succeeded in his intention. The question is, does that only apply to someone who actually TRIES to do something, or also to someone who WANTS to or SUPPORTS the attempts of others? Tzarich 'iyun.


Even if the work is dirty, sometimes you just have to do it, especially if no one else will. You're welcome to use some soap from my soapbox to wash up when you're finished...

Again, I'm just trying to represent what the Torah says. You haven't yet given any rebuttal from a Torah source. So I suggest that your revulsion is not with me, but with the Torah, which is a shame. But you have a right to your opinion - this IS an open forum...


Again, it's a question of definitions. How do you define "insane"? Nobody wants to be insane, which I would define as not being in control of one's mental faculties. Unless they want to get out of this world's pain and difficulties - but they wouldn't really want to become insane to do it.

Your turn.

I have reviewed this thread to see if you posted any references to Torah. Perhaps you feel that your ideas come from Torah, but that isn't the same as Torah sources. Post actual references and I will respond. And make it clear what you're advocating in the name of the Torah - because up to now all you've done is praise individual murderers.

In case you're confused "It says in the Torah (but not where) that ..." is not a source. "It says in this paragraph of that book" is a source.

What about in the time of nevu'ah; did they have asylums full of people who thought they got nevu'ah but didn't?

Prophets are not required for us to observe the Torah. Even if a prophet came and told us to not observe the Torah we are forbidden from listening to him.

The Torah clearly tells us how to deal with our enemies.

p_almonius
I suggest you start learning the basics. Start with the written Torah , go on to Yehoshua, Melachim .... Then learn what chazal tell us about going to war and dealing with our enemies. It is very well sumarrized by the Rambam in Hilchot Melachim. You can also read the Ramban and other Rishonim.

Your values and views have no place in Judaism.

You would have called almost all the tsadikim in the Torah murderers.

Here's a reminder of most of the relevant quotes about this so far (if anyone else out there is still interested):

















The source of the concept that the evil intention of a non-Jew is credited as if he actually carried it out is found in the Talmud Yerushalmi Peah daf 5a (courtesy of the Machon Mamre free online Shas):



"HaKadosh Boruch Hu credits the evil intention of a non-Jew as if he actually carried it out, as it is written ('Ovadia 1:9,10): '...by slaughter. For the oppression of your brother Jacob, disgrace will envelope you and you will be cut off forever.' * (But) did he kill him? Rather, it teaches that he thought about killing him, and the verse considers it as if he (actually) killed him."

Tosefoth in Bavli Kiddushin daf 39b (DH "machshavah") says the same thing, without bringing the Yerushalmi as a source.

Now that it's clear what Hashem thinks about the the intentions of a non-Jew, the valid question to ask is: what are we supposed to do about it? That needs to be examined...

* verse translation from the Stone Tanach

I have no idea how insane people were treated in the time of the neviim. I do know from what the neviim themselves wrote that people seemed to have trouble distinguishing between true and false neviim (not that I'm saying that false neviim were crazy, perhaps they were deliberately lying). Perhaps the requirement that a navi bring a sign to show that he was a true prophet narrowed the playing field to true prophets and deliberate false prophets through whom God was testing us.

Another) Chassid Shoteh
Ishar Koach and thank you for bringing sources.

p_almonius
Nw can you bring some sources to support your liberal non jewish views.

Almost all of the tzaddikim in the Torah have engaged in killing, let alone killing to which I would object? I was going to say that I am quite familiar with Yehoshua, Melachim, and Hilchot Melachim, but perhaps we have a different edition of Torah.

I will not take mussar from the morally deficient. But any claim that you care to make, that includes what you are claiming, and referenced sources to support that claim (refer me to an entire book, and I will respond with insults), I will be happy to relate to. I have have heard rumors that beyond the Rishonim, there were also Acharonim, and that there even exist contemporary poskim, and I will feel free to refer to them in my replies.

"אסור לה ליראת שמיים שתדחק את המוסר הטבעי של האדם, כי אז אינה עוד יראת שמיים טהורה" - אורות הקודש לראי"ה קוק,ח"ג.

"The fear of Heaven must not suppress man's natural morality for then the fear of heaven is no longer pure."

You know, it does sort of seem that no one else cares. Not that I think it would be helpful to debate the antil-zionists who feel that the medinah is illegitimate, but it's odd that none of them are participating in this thread. But there are some people who I'm puzzled not to see in this thread. Melech?

And not that I think that either of us should change our position because of what other people think (or don't care about).

Precisely. A source about what Hashem thinks about the intentions a person does not say what we should do about it. You want to examine it? Go right ahead, but if you don't find a source for your conclusion, it's just your conclusion, it's not the halacha. You don't have rabbis where you live? You want to post irrelevant sources, I can filibuster with the best of them. Stay on topic, or I'll post the Bnei Brak phone book.

Whoa, boys - let's be a little more civilized here! I mean in the tone of post, not necessarily how each relates to the other's definition of "civilized"). Gqh, I appreciate your support, and I think I agree with you, but let's not fall into the trap of getting as derisive as our esteemed opponent here. Instead of yelling about who knows TaNaCh, Chazal and R/A better, why don't you BOTH bring a few actually sources to back yourselves up? How about starting with MT Hilchoth Melachim?

Let's clarify things here a little. We're talking about taking military-style action against a group of people (let's call them Nationalist Arabs (NA's), to avoid using the misleading term "palestinians"). Is it enough to know that all/most/X% of them would attack/support those who attack Jews in Eretz Yisrael to decide that they are deserving of such action? Or do they have to be in the act of aggression to be reacted to?

P_Almonius (PA for short, if you don't mind) - I brought you the source for a goy's evil intention being enough - what's your response?

Another point, and I'm sorry that I can't bring the exact source right now, but I remember learning once that any non-Jew in the Land of Israel who is not keeping the Sheva' Mitzvoth Bnei Noach is strictly speaking chayav mita. That may not be able to be enforced in a non-Torah govt, but I think that's the din. And that's not even if they are our enemies - if so, then kol shekein.


To call someone "morally deficient" is a little unfair, since we are in the process of deciding whose morality is the more correct one. At this point, we are charging you with the same deficiency!


What is "natural morality"? If it's what you decide is moral, then you're saying that your morality overrides the Torah's, c"v. You could justify many so-called moral principles with that quote. We'll have to see what Rav Kook meant in context.

...

Yeah - and K rebbe, where did you disappear to?


Too bad you continue to insist on being so nasty. You should at least acknowledge my honesty about seeing the problems with my source. I DO want to examine it - because if I can't answer it, then the source goes out the window (or at least to Beit Din Shel Ma'alah), as well as "my" conclusio, unless there's another source (like MT Hil. Melachim). I think that your Rav Kook quote is an irrelevant source, because you can justify almost anything you want with it.