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mosheshmeal
QUOTE(grend123 @ Dec 7 2004, 11:57 PM) *
And you do know that Rav Hirsch had a box at the opera, right?

QUOTE(artscroll @ Oct 4 2006, 01:23 PM) *
As for R. Hirsch, he is neither the beginning nor end of modern Orthodoxy. But either way, he was 100% positive that the opera was lechatchila and the ghetto was a nasty abberation.



The following is quoted from the obituary for Prof. Mordechai Breuer, by Marc B. Shapiro at the Seforim Blog :

A couple of months ago, someone contacted me and wanted information about Hirsch’s visits to the opera. I looked around the internet a bit, and apparently it is “common knowledge” that Hirsch attended the opera. There have even been online discussions about what the halakhic justification of this was. Despite my extensive reading in German Orthodox literature, I had never heard that Hirsch went to the opera. Therefore, I was very skeptical of this piece of "common knowledge." I was also aware that very often "common knowledge" turns out to be incorrect. But rather than offer my opinion, I did what I always did at times like this. I turned to Professor Breuer, the man who had read everything written by and about Hirsch, and who had painstakingly gone through every page of the German Orthodox newspapers and magazines of the nineteenth century. I also asked him about the general German Orthodox practice of going to the opera.

He replied:

QUOTE(Professor Breuer)
Here and there you can find hints in German printed sermons disapproving going to the opera. When I went to the opera as a boy of 13-14 years my father did not express his dissatisfaction. I don't know if Hirsch was an opera lover, but I know that he went to concerts when he was at a holiday resort.


All I can say is that if Breuer had never heard that Hirsch went to the opera, how is it that others seem to know this as a fact, and if asked for a source, will reply that it is “common knowledge”?

In another e-mail he wrote similarly:

QUOTE(Professor Breuer)
I know of no Orthodox rabbi in Germany who regularly visited the opera. This applies also to Rav S.R. Hirsch. Very musical as he was, he sometimes visited a concert, especially while on holidays, but never, to the best of my knowledge, the opera.


****

mosheshmeal
.
Bitter
lo ra'inu eino ra'ayah
err
I wonder what the source of this babbe maaseh is, then.
mosheshmeal
QUOTE(Bitter @ Sep 17 2007, 10:16 PM) *
lo ra'inu eino ra'ayah

Nevertheless, one would have to bring serious proof that he did, not that he did not.

mosheshmeal
.
Bitter
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Sep 17 2007, 09:30 PM) *
Nevertheless, one would have to bring serious proof that he did, not that he did not.

mosheshmeal
.

Agreed. Let's ask artscroll when we have the chance.
artscroll
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Sep 17 2007, 10:07 PM) *
All I can say is that if Breuer had never heard that Hirsch went to the opera, how is it that others seem to know this as a fact, and if asked for a source, will reply that it is “common knowledge”?


There are several possibilities. Prof. Breuer may indeed have never heard that he went to the opera, but he did go to the opera. Or he may have never heard that he went to the opera, and that is because he didn't go to the opera.

As for my source, on the one hand I hesitate to give this source because I heard this about ten years ago and I admit that my memory might have failed me, and in fact this is one of those things "everyone knows," rather than something I heard from someone who knows. On the other hand, my source can easily be emailed and asked 1) if he ever said or believed this and, if so, 2) what his source was.

So with the caveat that I could be mistaken and my source never said this, my source is Shnayer Leiman. Bear in mind that if he in fact said this, he would not have repeated a rumor, but certainly would have had a written source, and one he considered reliable (albeit it's possible such a written source was mistaken).

In sum: I don't think I made this up or was influenced by a rumor. On the contrary, I am pretty sure I heard this from a reputable source. In addition, Prof. Breuer may simply have not known or heard this, yet it's true. Or the contrary.

By the way, to clarify my quote--when I said he was 100% sure the opera was lechatchila, I actually did not intend to raise the issue of him and opera per se, which is not so important since it isn't a clear-cut halakhic problem as some might think. I meant German High Culture. I could as easily have said "he was 100% positive that the Schiller was lechatchila and the ghetto was a nasty abberation."
nondenom
Could it be that people are conflating opera with stam symphony concerts? Perhaps a game of broken telephone?
artscroll

Anything is possible.
Moshi
QUOTE(artscroll @ Sep 18 2007, 09:36 AM) *
By the way, to clarify my quote--when I said he was 100% sure the opera was lechatchila, I actually did not intend to raise the issue of him and opera per se, which is not so important since it isn't a clear-cut halakhic problem as some might think.


It seems obvious that he did not disapprove of the Western culture, but it's much more interesting to hear about him listening to women sing, no? I mean, I go to opera when the mood strikes me, but won't every real frum person tell you that it's assur?
Goldfish
QUOTE(Moshi @ Sep 18 2007, 01:18 PM) *
I mean, I go to opera when the mood strikes me

How often does the mood strike you?
Moshi
QUOTE(Goldfish @ Sep 18 2007, 01:22 PM) *
How often does the mood strike you?


I go maybe once every several years. Sometimes when the mood strikes me the opera is out of season.
Should go more often though, it's nice.
artscroll
QUOTE(Moshi @ Sep 18 2007, 01:18 PM) *
It seems obvious that he did not disapprove of the Western culture, but it's much more interesting to hear about him listening to women sing, no? I mean, I go to opera when the mood strikes me, but won't every real frum person tell you that it's assur?

First, the point is not that he didn't disapprove of Western culture. On the contrary, he approved of Western (high) culture very much. The difference is not subtle. However, it should also be pointed out that he explicitly and numerous times said that if there was a conflict between Western culture (ie, derekh eretz) and Torah, the Torah wins, end of story and even that one must be prepared to turn one's back on Western culture in favor of Torah, should there be a conflict. Now, you may think, big deal, of course he'd say that. It was all theoretical since he didn't think there was a conflict. But bear in mind that he was addressing those words to Jews who were more liberal than he. You sort of got the sense that with him, if it came down to it, he wouldn't have mourned not going to concerts and reading Goethe and Schiller, whereas a lot of Jews who are acculturated would.

As for opera and kol isha, suffice it to say that its too large of an issue to get into here, but there are several factors at play. Some people accept the contention that singing that can't be characterized as erotic is permitted, and, of course in chorale singing as well.

Suffice it to say, if it is true that he attended the opera the issue isn't that he violated his own understanding of halakhah, but rather that he felt it was permitted.
Goldfish
QUOTE(Moshi @ Sep 18 2007, 01:26 PM) *
I go maybe once every several years. Sometimes when the mood strikes me the opera is out of season.
Should go more often though, it's nice.

No kidding. And I thought you were being sarcastic.
Moshi
QUOTE(Goldfish @ Sep 18 2007, 01:43 PM) *
No kidding. And I thought you were being sarcastic.



Hm no why would you think I was being sarcastic?
Goldfish
QUOTE(Moshi @ Sep 18 2007, 01:51 PM) *
Hm no why would you think I was being sarcastic?

You don't seem like an opera kinda guy, that's all.
Bezalel99
I went to the opera a few times while I was in law school.

How about attending ice skating, where the women wear miniskirts and skate around with their legs lifted showing off their bloomers? Would that be a problem? Would it be good for a shidduch date, or would the girl freak out that the guy would go to such a thing?

Are any cultural events okay? How about a tractor pull or monster truck event? (I'm looking for ideas for where to take dates.)
shaya_getzl
I would not see any problem if him, or any other German or Hungarian luminary or a Chassidishe rebbe from Bukovina, were known to attend the opera. Despite what Tor has to say.
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