Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 03:39 PM
"Goodbye Wall" by Rabbi Meir Kahane
4 Tishri 5738 - September 16, 1977
They come in all sizes and shapes, complexions and complexes, in fusion and confusion, from East and West and North and South. They are Jews; they are tourists; they come to see it. The Wall. They come with beards and kaftan - direct from Williamsburg; they come with Rabbinical Council mustaches, from Flatbush and Kew Gardens Hills; they come with black yarmulkas to signify Agudah and knitted ones to shout their support and empathy with Zvulun Hammer; they come with no yarmulkas and are given them by their local American Jewish Congress tour guide; they come with no yarmulkas and wear the cardboard type that the keepers of the Wall dispense; they come with whatever they come with. To see It. The Wall.
They come with familiarity (some having been to Israel seven, eight, ten times), having reached the rank of resident tourist. Usually these are Orthodox Jews who come up to the Wall with confident strides as if to shake the hand of a familiar acquaintance. Others are not sure just what they have to do, how they are required to act, and they stand uncomfortably and nervously, glancing about to see what the others are doing. Still others stand, just stand before the Wall - thinking, meditating, praying, talking, whispering, weeping. And then they leave. They have been to the Land, been to Zion, been to Jerusalem, the Holy City, and been to see it. And then they leave. They leave behind their money, their tour guides, their little notes they wrapped into a small ball or wad and left in the crevices of the Wall. They leave the Land and Zion and Jerusalem, the Holy City, and The Wall. They go back to Great Neck and Boston and Los Angeles and Miami and, of course, Washington Heights and Monsey and Williamsburg and Boro Park. They leave Old Jerusalem for newer ones and the Wall for Wall Street because they must. To see Israel is to enjoy an experience beyond comparison. To see Jerusalem, the Holy City, is to gather a treasury of memories beyond price. To see the Wall is to experience a thrill that is indescribable. But everything has its time and its place and all good tours must come to an end. Israel is the finest of all places to visit but it is not for them to live there. And so they leave. The beards and the beardless, the Orthodox (ultra and modern), Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist, agnostic, atheist ... They leave. For "home." And I often wonder: When they came, they ran to say hello to the Wall. When they leave, do they make a point to say goodbye? And, indeed, how does one say goodbye to the Wall? What does one say to It? Does one stand there and daven Mincha, pray the Afternoon service that says: "And may our eyes behold Thy return to Zion ... " and then say to It: "Well, I suppose I have to go now. The business can't shut down for more than three weeks. Take care of yourself and let's hope that He returns soon ...?" Does one shake the Wall's vegetation in lieu of a hand and does one kiss it - kiss it Goodbye? If one knows that the Shechina, the Divine Presence, never left the Wall, how does one say goodbye to Him? What does one, who is leaving Israel for the Exile that we are told finds him with no G-d and worshipping idolatry in "purity" - say to the Divine Presence at the Wall?
I suppose that it is all this that finds most people leaving Israel without saying goodbye to It. I suppose that especially the ones whose heart and conscience are not as stone, cannot say to the Wall whose stones are as hearts: Goodbye, I am violating a basic tenet of Judaism; I betray my land; I go back to the fleshpots and materialism of the Exile and thus forsake you.
But I also wonder what the Wall says and thinks as It watches the Jews who come to visit as casually as if they were taking a trip (as so many more do lately) to Puerto Rico and Spain and Aruba and Rome. I wonder what It thinks as It looks at the hordes of tourists who come to touch It, fondle It, kiss It, stare at It, memorialize It in their film (still and motion) - and then go back to the lands that they consider their real homes. I wonder what It thinks as It watches the Jews pray and sway and bay at it. I wonder what It thinks as It watches the ritual and idol worship that has been built about It by the American Jewish Congress, the Ministry of Tourism and the UJA. I wonder what It thinks as It watches the Orthodox Jews from New Frankfort on the Heights and the majesty of Crown Heights and sees all the "religious Jews" on their three-week vacation before going back to idolatry. Surely, this last remnant of the Temple, in which preached the Prophets who inveighed against hypocrisy, remembers their words and repeats them to their descendants. Surely it repeats the words: "When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand to trample my courts? Bring no more vain oblations, it is an offering of abomination unto Me; New Moon and Sabbath, the holding of convocations - I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly ... " (Isaiah 1: 12)
The Wall looks at those who come to honor It and at that very moment plan to betray the Land and abominate it by leaving for an Exile they call "home" - and repeats: "Behold to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" (Samuel 1, 15:22). They leave the Wall for "home." They refuse to dwell in the Land of this Wall. It knows that that which they plan - peace and security in the Galut - will never be. It knows that if they reject the Wall of the Almighty, that there will be other walls for them: walls of fire and walls of prisons and camps. The Galut is one huge wall for the Jew - though he refuses to see it.If one comes to the Wall late, very late at night and listens carefully, very carefully, he can hear the Wall. It weeps softly to itself and says: "Woe unto my people for their humiliation of the Land..." And it seems to me that the Wall would prefer that those who say goodbye to it, would not bid it hello.
Gabbe
Oct 1 2007, 03:46 PM
It's not enough you have your own shtuyos, you need to post from this ratzchan?
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 03:52 PM
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 10:46 PM)

It's not enough you have your own shtuyos, you need to post from this ratzchan?
What are you all grumpy about today? You're not a Mets fan are you?
Gabbe
Oct 1 2007, 03:58 PM
Not at all. I'm not a Pinchas-shtuyos fan either.
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 04:02 PM
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 10:58 PM)

Not at all. I'm not a Pinchas-shtuyos fan either.
So why is it shtuyos?
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 04:19 PM
QUOTE(Pinchas @ Oct 1 2007, 04:02 PM)

So why is it shtuyos?
QUOTE
I wonder what It thinks as It watches the Orthodox Jews from New Frankfort on the Heights and the majesty of Crown Heights and sees all the "religious Jews" on their three-week vacation before going back to idolatry. Surely, this last remnant of the Temple, in which preached the Prophets who inveighed against hypocrisy, remembers their words and repeats them to their descendants.
Hmm... shtus or sinas chinam? you be the judge...
Gabbe
Oct 1 2007, 04:23 PM
(This post was originally much longer, but since I think you're essentially a nice guy, albeit a bit clueless, I edited it.)
Because when you patter obsessively about the same thing over and over again, you cheapen it.
But what do I know? I'm an oved Avodah Zara, ke'ilu.
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 1 2007, 05:19 PM)

Hmm... shtus or sinas chinam? you be the judge...
Please. This is from a person who if you ever saw him, there would be a mitzvah to kill him.
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 04:30 PM
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 11:23 PM)

(This post was originally much longer, but since I think you're essentially a nice guy, albeit a bit clueless, I edited it.)
Awww...that the sweetest thing you ever told me.

QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 11:23 PM)

Because when you patter obsessively about the same thing over and over again, you cheapen it.
I disagree.
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 11:23 PM)

But what do I know? I'm an oved Avodah Zara, ke'ilu.Please. This is from a person who if you ever saw him, there would be a mitzvah to kill him.
Ouch.
Gabbe
Oct 1 2007, 04:31 PM
I'm talking about the Rodeph, menuchaso hinnom, not you.
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 04:52 PM
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 04:23 PM)

This is from a person who if you ever saw him, there would be a mitzvah to kill him.
Couldn't agree more.
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 05:04 PM
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 11:31 PM)

I'm talking about the Rodeph, menuchaso hinnom, not you.
Never thought you meant otherwise.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
Oct 1 2007, 05:31 PM
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 11:31 PM)

I'm talking about the Rodeph, menuchaso hinnom, not you.
If that is true about HIM, what is going to happen to the "gedolim" of today who stuff their mattresses with Jewish Blood money
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 05:57 PM
QUOTE(Gabbe @ Oct 1 2007, 05:31 PM)

I'm talking about the Rodeph, menuchaso hinnom, not you.
Who was killed?
sle123
Oct 1 2007, 06:02 PM
Perhaps people get angered b/c they see some truth to this.
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 06:14 PM
QUOTE(sle123 @ Oct 2 2007, 01:02 AM)

Perhaps people get angered b/c they see some truth to this.
Oh boy! Gabbe loves it when I use that one on him.
sle123
Oct 1 2007, 06:16 PM
I wasn't directing it at Gabbe.
I was just saying...in general. I even feel myself moved by R'Kahane's writings, regardless of whether I agree with him or not.
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 06:18 PM
QUOTE(sle123 @ Oct 2 2007, 01:16 AM)

I wasn't directing it at Gabbe.
I was just saying...in general. I even feel myself moved by R'Kahane's writings, regardless of whether with him I agree or not.
I guess it's a natrual reaction when confronted with harsh musser... and Rav Kahane's writings are as harsh as they come.
sle123
Oct 1 2007, 06:19 PM
QUOTE(Pinchas @ Oct 1 2007, 06:18 PM)

I guess it's a natrual reaction when confronted with harsh musser... and Rav Kahane's writings are as harsh as they come.
Well it can't all be bunnies and flowers.
Did you ever hear/watch the speech he gave at Brandeis University?
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 06:21 PM
QUOTE(sle123 @ Oct 2 2007, 01:19 AM)

Well it can't all be bunnies and flowers.
Did you ever hear/watch the speech he gave at Brandeis University?
No...but I saw the debate between him and Dershowitz... amazing stuff!
sle123
Oct 1 2007, 06:26 PM
It's on youtube if you have time & want to watch it.
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 06:27 PM
QUOTE(sle123 @ Oct 2 2007, 01:26 AM)

It's on youtube if you have time & want to watch it.
Will do. So is the debate btw...and his famous open letter - I'm in one of the pics there coming off my Aliyah plane!
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 06:30 PM
QUOTE(sle123 @ Oct 1 2007, 06:02 PM)

Perhaps people get angered b/c they see some truth to this.
Nah. It was more the calling Yekkes and Lubavitchers (and anyone else who lives outside EY) "ovdei avodah zarah"
QUOTE( @ Oct 1 2007, 06:18 PM)
I guess it's a natrual reaction when confronted with harsh musser
You mean sharp
мусор of course...
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
Oct 1 2007, 06:35 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 2 2007, 01:30 AM)

Nah. It was more the calling Yekkes and Lubavitchers (and anyone else who lives outside EY) "ovdei avodah zarah"
The Gemara doesn't say that explicitly?
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 06:43 PM
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Oct 1 2007, 06:35 PM)

The Gemara doesn't say that explicitly?
So you'd include the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT'L? (I mean, he did live in chutz laaretz no?)
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 06:48 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 2 2007, 01:43 AM)

So you'd include the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT'L? (I mean, he did live in chutz laaretz no?)
The Rebbe said that when a ship is sinking you first get all the crew off and only after does the captain leave.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
Oct 1 2007, 06:48 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 2 2007, 01:43 AM)

So you'd include the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT'L?
I'm not the one who made the statement, so don't ask me but like it or not it is a mefurash gemara...
And I would say the Rebbe and other community leaders are different because the Jews in America need them there. But people who stam don't move to Israel "just because" need to answer this for themselves...
And it is clear the gemara doesn't mean they are momish idolaters, they were trying to make a point about the chashivus of EY and the spiritual benefits of living there, as was Rav Kahane who lived in the US himself for most of his life...
sle123
Oct 1 2007, 06:51 PM
Do you mind elaborating please- what does the gmara say, exactly?
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 06:53 PM
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Oct 1 2007, 06:48 PM)

And it is clear the gemara doesn't mean they are momish idolaters, they were trying to make a point about the chashivus of EY and the spiritual benefits of living there
That's exactly my point. Kahane was calling people mamash ovdei avodah zarah, which is not the gemara's kavanah.
QUOTE
as was Rav Kahane who lived in the US himself for most of his life...
Typical "do as I say and not as I do" attitude.
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 06:58 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 1 2007, 07:53 PM)

That's exactly my point. Kahane was calling people mamash ovdei avodah zarah, which is not the gemara's kavanah.
How do you know?
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
Oct 1 2007, 06:58 PM
QUOTE(sle123 @ Oct 2 2007, 01:51 AM)

Do you mind elaborating please- what does the gmara say, exactly?
Translation NOT mine...
At all times should a man reside in Eretz Israel, even in a city inhabited mostly by heathens. Let him not reside outside the Land, even in a city inhabited by Jews. Since whoever resides in Eretz Israel is like to him who has a god, whilst whoever resides outside it is like him who has no god, as it is stated (Leviticus 25, 38): “To give you the land of Canaan, to be your God. “Do you mean to say that whoever does not reside in the land of Israel has no god?! But what is meant is—Whoever resides outside the land is as if he worships idols. David said so too: “For they have driven me out this day from abiding in the inheritance of the Lord (i.e. in Eretz Israel, from where he fled from the anger of Saul), saying go, serve other gods” (1 Samuel 26, 19). But whoever told David to go serve other gods? But this teach you that whoever resides outside the Land of Israel is as if he served idols. (Ketubot 110b)
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 07:06 PM
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Oct 1 2007, 06:58 PM)

How do you know?
How do I know that the gemarah didn't pasken that living outside EY is avodah zarah? Because it doesn't. Nor is it brought down lehalacha by poskim, so it's only bederech mashal.
How do I know Kahane was calling people mamash ovdei avodah zara? כל הפוסל במומו פוסל
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 07:10 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 2 2007, 02:06 AM)

How do I know that the gemarah didn't pasken that living outside EY is avodah zarah? Because it doesn't. Nor is it brought down lehalacha by poskim, so it's only bederech mashal.
How do I know Kahane was calling people mamash ovdei avodah zara? כל הפוסל במומו פוסל
So K'eilu avodah zara is fine?
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 07:10 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 1 2007, 08:06 PM)

How do I know Kahane was calling people mamash ovdei avodah zara? כל הפוסל במומו פוסל
You're not answering the question.
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 07:16 PM
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Oct 1 2007, 07:10 PM)

You're not answering the question.
He says they're "violating a basic tenet of Judaism".
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 07:27 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 2 2007, 02:16 AM)

He says they're "violating a basic tenet of Judaism".
Well Dovid Hamelech wasn't too thrilled with it either.
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 07:29 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 1 2007, 08:16 PM)

He says they're "violating a basic tenet of Judaism".
Living in E'y is a pretty basic mitzva. Do you disagree?
krumlikeapretzel
Oct 1 2007, 07:41 PM
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Oct 1 2007, 07:29 PM)

Living in E'y is a pretty basic mitzva. Do you disagree?
It's pretty bold to accuse the majority of frum Jews of not fulfilling a "pretty basic mitzvah".
When you have views like that, you should know what is halacha lemaise, what is a chumrah, what is based on hashkafah etc.
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 07:46 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 1 2007, 08:41 PM)

It's pretty bold to accuse the majority of frum Jews of not fulfilling a "pretty basic mitzvah".
When you have views like that, you should know what is halacha lemaise, what is a chumrah, what is based on hashkafah etc.
That is halacha according to the majority of frum jews.
When I say basic I mean like not unknown.
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Kalashnikover_Rebbe
Oct 1 2007, 08:01 PM
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Oct 2 2007, 02:41 AM)

It's pretty bold to accuse the majority of frum Jews of not fulfilling a "pretty basic mitzvah".
Like in Bayis Sheni??? Ezra had not much more success than Rav Kahane...
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 08:23 PM
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Oct 2 2007, 02:46 AM)

That is halacha according to the majority of frum jews.
When I say basic I mean like not unknown.
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Reb Moshe held it's only a mitzvah like Tzitzis. (A Mitzvah Reshus.) But Krum either doesn't hold that most frum Jews hold of Reb Moshe or doesn't hold it's so terrible not to wear Tzitzis.
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 08:27 PM
QUOTE(Pinchas @ Oct 1 2007, 09:23 PM)

Reb Moshe held it's only a mitzvah like Tzitzis. (A Mitzvah Reshus.) But Krum either doesn't hold that most Jews hold of Reb Moshe or doesn't hold it's so terrible not to wear Tzitzis.
Must be.(or maybe krum is just guessing what most frum jews hold) I personally hold its terrible not to wear tzitzis.
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Kalashnikover_Rebbe
Oct 1 2007, 08:31 PM
QUOTE(Pinchas @ Oct 2 2007, 03:23 AM)

Reb Moshe held it's only a mitzvah like Tzitzis. (A Mitzvah Reshus.) But Krum either doesn't hold that most Jews hold of Reb Moshe or doesn't hold it's so terrible not to wear Tzitzis.
But isn't that just the point? What self respecting frum Jew doesn't wear tzitzis?? Even if it IS Reshus?
Many people I know SLEEP in Tzitzis...
It's one thing if you are "motordox", but can you imagine a Chassidic guy with a beard and peyos who davens 3X a day and is a talmid chacham stam kacha not wearing tzitzis when he is perfectly capable of doing so??
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 08:33 PM
QUOTE(sle123 @ Oct 2 2007, 01:26 AM)

It's on youtube if you have time & want to watch it.
Thanks!
Just did. Was going to just watch the first five minutes but could stop. It was amazing!
Now I blame you for me losing sleep tonight!
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 08:36 PM
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Oct 1 2007, 09:31 PM)

But isn't that just the point? What self respecting frum Jew doesn't wear tzitzis?? Even if it IS Reshus?
Many people I know SLEEP in Tzitzis...
It's one thing if you are "motordox", but can you imagine a Chassidic guy with a beard and peyos who davens 3X a day and is a talmid chacham stam kacha not wearing tzitzis when he is perfectly capable of doing so??
Tzitzis is a universally accepted jewish custom. Therefore the mitzva is even if you dont happen to be wearing a 4 cornered beged.
Lots of people hold living in E'y is a regular commandment.
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mosheshmeal
Oct 1 2007, 08:38 PM
QUOTE(Pinchas @ Oct 1 2007, 04:39 PM)

They come in all sizes and shapes, complexions and complexes, in fusion and confusion, from East and West and North and South. They are Jews; they are tourists; they come to see it. The Wall.
Not all.
mosheshmeal
.
Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 08:38 PM
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Oct 2 2007, 03:36 AM)

Tzitzis is a universally accepted jewish custom. Therefore the mitzva is even if you dont happen to be wearing a 4 cornered beged.
Lots of people hold living in E'y is a regular commandment.
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Yeah - but like - like only when Moshiach comes. No?
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 08:43 PM
QUOTE(Pinchas @ Oct 1 2007, 09:38 PM)

Yeah - but like - like only when Moshiach comes. No?
Not according to the rambam and ramban and others.
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Pinchas
Oct 1 2007, 08:46 PM
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Oct 2 2007, 03:43 AM)

Not according to the rambam and ramban and others.
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Cool.
Ramban and others.
Rambam is debatable. With him it's double or nothing.
doodlehead
Oct 1 2007, 08:49 PM
QUOTE(Pinchas @ Oct 1 2007, 09:46 PM)

Rambam is debatable. With him it's double or nothing.
He says its a mitzva regardless, and even quotes the gmara krebbe mentioned before about serving A'z.
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