That I said, "One thing I've discovered is that too few Jews explore/express their creative side."

why?

Relative to the general population? Do you think Jews [and that's a pretty broad demographic which differs from the general population in most categories by not very much] explore their creative sides less than members of other religions? How are you defining creativity? Visual art creativity? The written word? Technologic/scientific creativity?

do you say that because only a handful of us post in this forum, or do you have another reason?

It only applies to frum Jews, if you ask me.

mosheshmeal
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Do you consider a book of torah chiddushim to be creative?

Not in the same sense.

Maybe. Good point.

mosheshmeal
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No. It's intellectual.

Creative is the arts/media.

Frum Jews definitely aren't as creative as other groups and they never have been. Why? Because the arts/entertainment are more or less frivolous pursuits and there may be halachic issues regarding images. Sure, there are mosaics in ancient shuls but that's more the work of an artisan than an artist.

Yes.

The Ramchal wrote plays and poetry.

Are there any paytanim nowadays?

It's not a comparison to other religions. But it is about God and people. I've lived all over the world. I've interacted with many cultures. In my experience with Jews, too few of them explore or express their creative potential. This is in relation to visual, written or even the art of relationship. In my exprience with Jews, too few feel . It seems more automated. Even when asked, "Do you feel anything spiritual like a connection to God?" the answer, more often than not, is, "No." It is this connection irrespective of preference of observance, that empowers powerful art. However, regarding the general population, again, there were/are too few Jews who express/ed creative potential. But those that did left a remarkable impact on the world of art. Take Marc Chagall (Moishe Shagal) for example...how his art was publicly ridiculed by the Germans.

It's not a criticism, just a sad experience.

There are aesthetics in writing a sefer, I mean that on two levels: 1, art is beauty, and there's aesthetic beauty in an innovative chiddush, which is what makes it pleasurable, for example when something - a word that was thought to be meaningless and trivial in a passage from the Midrash or Gemorah is illuminated to be very significant and even sheds light on the meaning of the entire passage. 2. some seforim are written more aesthetically than others. (although aesthetics sometimes can get in the way of comprehension for someone who is not familiar with the language or phrases from Tanach).

Back in the day, pretty much every Rabbinic author began his sefer with poetry. Of late, in my opinion, the modern jewish mind has lost the ability to appreciate the emotional and intellectual depth of these poems and should someone utilize poetry in ones seforim it will be perceived as flowery mumbo jumbo as opposed to insightful and profound verse.

I think the general population may be somewhat reflected here as well.






I imagine religious requirements would limit the exploration and expression of such. That almost makes it sadder.

Who designs Judaica and seforim covers?

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you pr1ck us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

Yes; and, yes.

Jewish Action (the OU's magazine) recently had a special section on Jewish creativity. They interviewed Haim Sabato (Adjusting Sights) and Shuli and Michal Rand (Ushpizin) and had an article about Girls' Night Out.

http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5767/fall67.htm

Nobody with any creativity, that's for sure. (I am only semi-joking.)

I disagree with this. It has nothing to do with depth of feeling or spirituality but with the fact that these days people on the right are far too pre-occupied with not doing anything that remotely goyish and people on the left are too busy going to college and becoming lawyers. "Artist" is just not a fitting job for a frum girl or boy who's going to need to support a Jewish family some day.

And if people had and deeply felt a spiritual connection to God it wouldn't matter one flip what someone on the other side was doing. All that would matter would be that connection and art irrespective of working another job (as I do). But you're right about expectations among the frum world; it disallows exploration and/or creative expression to gestate. Thus, and I believe we come full circle, too few Jews explore and express their creative potential.

I personally know a lot a lot of artists (amateur and those who sell) who are Orthodox. A LOT.

I still think this is irrelevant. Someone can be deeply spiritual and not have a single creative bone in their body. Conversely, some of the most creative people to ever live were not remotely spiritual.


Plus many of the frummer schools don't have art appreciation classes or (many) other ways to express creativity.

Anywhere I can migrate to?

I've met them in the DC area and in Boston I don't seek them out, these are just people I've met in communities over the years.

Are you an artist?

Tzfat.

http://www.artists.co.il/safed/safed_e.html

Tzfat has an Artist's Quarter or something like that.

I write. Or, I did.

Why don't you write any longer?

one day b"n i'll post my photos of the electrical boxes there.

It's a stereotype.

How can an experience be a stereo-type?

"My experience is that blacks are lazy."
That's a stereotype. Our biases shape our perceptions.

Change your statement to, "too few people are creative" and I would agree - more people should be creative. But Jews specifically? Not unless you can demonstrate they are less creative than the general population adjusted for age, economic position, education, etc.

The difference in that statement and mine was that I said, "too few".

right. see my post above this one:

Change your statement to, "too few people are creative" and I would agree - more people should be creative. But Jews specifically? Not unless you can demonstrate they are less creative than the general population adjusted for age, economic position, education, etc.

that's why I said it's not fair, as opposed to inaccurate. it's not fair if you're singling out Jews

First, I don't care (any longer) what other people are doing. I am focusing on Jews. I wasn't inferring Jews were less creative due to potential capability. On the contrary, I think there's a wealth of beauty trapped inside the majority which would flourish if allowed to bloom out from under the auspices of stringent religious requirements which exclude the study or expression of art. You're right when you say that Our biases shape our perceptions. But it's our personal experiences which shape our biases. Those who've been raised in practically a nonexistential state of exposure of the arts certainly may grow up to think art is the least important and the expression of such, unless it rhymes lamely as a hallmark card or resembles an excerpt from a teen angst diary, is sillyness. Therefore, too few do, and that is sad.

Would you agree that frum Jews supressed the introduction and expression of art because of potential influence more than any other culture?

Funny this should come up, as my wife is painting as we speak

One of my great aunts who lived in Givataim was an artist and left a lot of paintings when she passed away. I have a cousin in the USA that's also an artist. I also do a little bit of sketching (especially portraits) every once in a while.

Ahavati, you said you've lived all over the world-I'm curious, where have you lived?
And... are you a professional artist?
(The paintings you've shown so far that I've seen are very nice )

Goldfish?You married like-minded. How blessed is that?

I can't even draw stick figures though

I think you can demonstrate easily that frum Jews are less professionally creative than other groups.

Painting the town red?

Why aren't you with her?

mosheshmeal
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I'm pondering how to answer this.

painting a flower. across the room. well she was a minute ago. now she's counting money from wedding gifts. how jewish.

I was raised in Europe and America. And lived briefly in Central America and Mexico. I don't know what constitutes a professional artist but I would say I'm not.I'd like to see some of your sketches. Were you exposed to art and encouraged to express yourself? Chinese/Japanese art is one of my favorite forms of expression in verse and paintings. Minmalisticly profound, as is their lifestyle.But you write.

No. There are certain halachic strictures that developed against certain types of images, but that's a far cry from "suppressing the introduction and expression of art".
And anyway, "frum Jews" is not the same as "Jews". First you must decide if we're discussing Jews, or if we're discussing frum Jews.

So the introduction and encouraged expression of art (minus censored images) is within the standard curriculum of Jews?



Okay, my experience is that too few frum and non frum Jews explore and or express their artistic capabilities. Whether this is contributed to the lack of exposure and encouragement towards the arts while young; or, simple disinterest regarding priority and importance as adults, may never fully be determined.

Is calligraphy art?

No.

Depends on what language you're asking about. English, as Moshi said, not so much. Japanese/Chinese/Arabic? Absolutely.

Though I suppose it could depend on how you define calligraphy.

It is considered by some to be, yes.