STRANGER! if you, passing, meet me, and desire to speak to me, why should you
not speak to me?
And why should I not speak to you?




(anyone who's traveled with the MTA recently should recognize and have memorized this poem as part of the Poetry In Motion series, meant to give people something to read besides the newspaper being read by the person sitting next to them.)


One possible answer is that it is not tznius.

I don't even want to know how you found those...

You can borrow them if you want.....

Saw it on the subway and liked it.

Didn't speak to the next stranger I wanted to speak to.

Pardon?

...For a female to speak to a random male sitting next to her on the subway.

Tzanua. Possible. About 50% chance, to be precise.

Or vice versa.

You're kidding me. Are you trying to tell me that if I see a female and wish her a good morning, that's not tzanu'a? And if chas ve-shalom a lady should wish me a good shabbos, the proper response would be...what? To admonish her for her lack of tzni'ut? Is this the source for the [certain demographic] death stare if chas ve-shalom a young gentleman should find himself sitting next to a young lady? No wonder there is a shidduch crisis.

FWIW, I took it as meaning more than two words each. Somewhat like the two strangers sitting next to me recently who became best friends over a laptop and even exchanged job offers.

You said pardon, so I explained what exist possibly could have meant.
According to many yeshivish people, saying good morning (or even shabbat shalom/good shabbos) to a person of the opposite gender is inappropiate and frowned upon.
Do I have a source? Nope. My personal take is different; I've briefly discussed this once before on the site...

Yes sir... the collection of prejudices acquired by the age they're needed.

Seriously, the subway is not the place to do that. It's different if you're watering the flowers and the neighbor passes by and you say good morning.



ETA: This is subjective. There's nothing wrong with saying ETA AGAIN: more than "two words each".

That's awful. Chas ve-shalom there should be such a calamity. Better everyone stay in their own homes, as per FYI's assertion of R. Miller's position, and we should all be zocheh to erect invisible walls of purity that reach to the sky.Oh. So it's a breach of tzniut standards to say good morning to someone on a subway but not somebody walking by? So the problem is one of speed of transportation? What about something faster than walking but slower than a train, like if someone is passing by on a donkey?How about to a same gendered idol worshipper? Because I heard Chazal considered that laudable and would rush to greet an idol worshipper in the market place. So I should be more friendly to an idol worshipper than to an OPS-adherent?

Melech, people come from different backgrounds. Do you honestly expect the average satmar girl to go to co-ed events and converse with males? Sure, there're exceptions. And I believe this issue does ADD to the shidduch crisis, but what can we do? It's part of the result of having multiple, various sects and opinions.Go ask a person who holds by that view.
(IDK if you're asking me personally?)

So it's a two-word limit? Next time some lady asks me where the corn chips are in the supermarket, I can say, "aisle eight", but not "I think aisle eight, ma'am"? Should I also be careful to do the yeshivish mumble and avert my eyes when speaking to her, or is it better to look at her, but to do so with utter disgust and disdain?

Classic straw man argument. I'm talking about being polite on the subway. I never said a Satmar girl should go to co-ed events, nor that she should have sex with anyone on the subway. The question is whether one can speak to someone of the opposite gender on the subway. I'm talking about being polite, not about having intimate relations.
How do they order tickets or ask for information? Or do they make sure the person in the information booth is a same gendered person?

That's the worst.

It's a bit hard to be "polite" on the subway if you were raised in a home, school, synagogue, and environment, in general, which taught you NOT to.

And slicha? Who're "you people"??
Are you referring to me?

To be absolutely clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying more than two words or having a decent discussion (in fact, I think it's wonderful). But I thought (incorrectly, it seems), that EW meant more than two words.

Preserving this before you edit.....

Xi, did they appear frum and of opposite gender?

Yes, because you're going to be standing around each other for a while.
Yes.
In that case, the correct thing to say is L'shana habaa b'yerushalayim.

Really?


Levels Of Friendliness On Public Transportation, From Point Of View Of OJ Girl:
(lowest to highest)
One: opposite gender, different religion
Two: opposite gender, same religion
Three: same gender, different religion
Four: same gender, same religion


Go to booth. No, there's a glass mechitza.

I edited post 12. You were indeed correct.

Hey, it's wasn't me who suggested one should not speak to an opposite gendered person on the subway and that it would be a breach of tzniut standards were one to. My question is why they are being taught to be impolite.

Xi, what kind of people were you referring to?

Did you miss that?

Great, so better to wish Maria Teresa a happy easter than a good shabbos to me.


Please, please tell me you're joking.

What's impolite?

That's three words. I thought it was a two-word limit. I guess "le-shanah ha-ba'ah birushalayim ha-benuyah" would be out of the question at 4 words. Next thing you know you'll be attending co-ed events.

Did the OPS gloss over that gemara?

On Shabbos on the subway? You must be joking.

I'm 100% joking. This thread is very funny.

Seriously, 'we people' actually do interact effectively with the outside world.

But only with the same gender, if you consider it to be a breach of tzniut standards to speak more than two words to an opposite gender.


Then I'm confused. In your chart you listed speaking with a female idol worshipper as less problematic that speaking with a same gendered Jew. Is that not the case?

I guess I'll have to be pretty blunt here.
There're communities which have few judgemental people and will think that girl wishing a man a "Shabbat shalom/good Shabbos" is a bat yisrael with good manners who means nothing BUT- literally- "shabbat shalom."

HOWEVER,
there're communities that look down upon such acts, and if a girl does so, her name will be tainted in her community. It'll be harder to make friends who won't judge you as being "misled" or "less religious," to be matched up with a good shidduch, and the family will be given a bad reputation/status.
Whether this is right or wrong, and like it or not, it EXISTS. And many girls are taught in school that by even saying a few words to a man, they might turn him on and get an avera. I apologize for the bluntness.
So there're two issues going on, they think it's wrong to do so because either:
1. they're paranoid/scared
2. they think it's wrong due to the teachings and environment they grew up in and/or currently live in.

And many do NOT think they're being rude by not greeting a man. That isn't their intention.
How their intention is received is a whole other topic, and yes, I agree that many of this is problematic, and there is a time and place for everything.
It's also problematic, IMHO, to speak to every single breathing person you feel like speaking to. AGAIN, there is a time and place for everything.

And if I'm going to be judged for MERELY explaining/elaborating on someone else's post, then houston, we have a problem.

When appropriate.

The opposite. (levels of friendliness are from lowest to highest.)

Please just tell me where it is?

Ftr, shmoozing on the subway is not the same thing as saying good shabbos to someone.

Perhaps in your opinion.

What's your opinion?

Not outwardly observant. Does it make a difference?

While I am most amused at your ridicule of the OPS and its lackeys, I must remind you that this is NY we are talking about, and the SUBWAY no less. No one even LOOKS at each other, let alone "greets" each other or strikes up a conversation....
It's one thing if someone speaks to you and you rudely snub them, but it is NOT the "minhag hamakom" to converse with random strangers in the street or the subway......

Not sure, I don't quite grasp that part of the thread. Thanks anyway.

It depends on the person, but the reason behind refraining to speak to males about every day matters - like directory - is usually the same reason that many girls will not greet a jewish male on yom tov or shabbat.
That being said, there're other factors involved (which I've mentioned), and it certainly isn't a black & white issue in various religious communities.

I would say "it depends" and often CAN be similar.

You beat me to it. If you look at someone on the subway, it's like "you're not a New Yorker, are you?"

Melech, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. I would talk to you on the subway. And say Gut Shabbos to you. Sle123 does have a point though and she's not completely off the mark, but it depends on the age and the context. Teenagers talking to each other on the street is considered inappropriate, but if someone wishes you a Gut Shabbos, it's very inappropriate NOT to respond. There are some people I wouldn't say Gut Shabbos to just because I know they'd be uncomfortable with it. It depends on the situation.

This "death stare" reminds me of the look I get when I'm on the NYC subway and a seat opens up near me right next to an Orthodox man and I dare to show any visible signs of moving to sit next to him. Of course my personal opinion on this is that if the notion of my sitting next to him on the subway and c"v actually having our bodies touch in some small way bothers him so much, he is more than welcome to get up and stand. That said, I've never seen a single one of them get up in this scenario, so I guess they manage to deal with it somehow.


I guess this chart of yours helps explain the scenario I mentioned above, since I'm sure as far as they are concerned, I am from a different religion.


I'll have you know that I've had lots of people come up to me and start talking to me on subways, subway platforms, etc..., both male and female. While the majority of them are tourists asking for directions, there have also been plenty of native NY'ers who have struck up conversations with me over the years on any number of topics, so I'm not sure where you get your information. That said, I'm speaking specifically about Manhattan, and have no idea what transpires in the other boroughs.

R. Yochanan b. Zakai Berachot 17a

.

Sometimes a man sits down next to me, and I stand up. And sometimes not.

Try sitting down next to them and see if they stand up.

I think it depends on the time of day.

But yes, I go on various kinds of public transportation and people are usually not reluctant to start a conversation, although it is not very common. I heard recently there's a study that NYC is the friendliest city in the USA, makes sense.

I have never seen the death stare directed at me or any other women but I have seen men stand up after a woman sits down next to them.

I tend to avoid sitting next to frum men, but not if I'm tired and just can't care less about any kind of sensitivity.

That's what I was saying. Although I usually get the "death stare", I always sit down and they never stand up, so really the "death stare" is meant to intimidate me not to sit next to them, and really all it does is encourage me to sit down, since I find their behavior very offensive.

Goldfish - It's not always, but it has happened enough, and I've seen them give it to other women as well.

That's a comfort to hear, because what confused me was the assertion that it's not tzanu'a to speak to someone of the opposite gender on the subway. That was the original claim, that the Whitman poem was encouraging a forbidden practice.
Now that I hear that's not really the case, and one only pays lip service to the prohibition in order to feel religiously superior but when it comes right down to it it's not really prohibited le-ma'aseh, then that makes a whole lot more sense.

Exactly.

Where do you see this?

For example, you yourself said you were only joking when you said you would ask directions from an opposite-gendered person only if he were behind a glass partition. Since you would therefore ask directions from someone, and that's speaking to someone, I can only assume when you say you wouldn't speak to a man, that's to be taken with a grain of salt, since you would. Like if you needed something from him - one can always use people, it's just problematic to be nice for the sake of being nice.

Now let me ask you something - when I was in NY this summer, a young lady was waiting on the platform at Cedarhurst for the LIRR and then she got on and was standing near us reading "Off the Derech", a book previously discussed on h.com. Would it have been a breach of tzniut standards to engage her in a conversation about the book? Or is it only permitted to do so on h.com but not in person?

existwhere, what's getting me upset is the assertion that speaking to an opposite gendered is forbidden. Not that it's a personal practice of yours that is laudable. That it is forbidden. Hence your quote above: "Exactly" - that the Whitman poem is encouraging a forbidden practice. That means anyone who holds differently is a violator of halachah and anyone who speaks to an opposite gender on the subway is a violator of halachah. Is that really your assertion? That if I were to engage the young lady reading "Off the Derech" in conversation on the LIRR that I would be a violator of halachah?

I never said that. And I would use a map. But anyway.

If a man asked me for directions, I'd tell him.

Your wife or daughter could have engaged her in conversation, then you'd see how comfortable she would be with that.
It's only permitted on h.com.


(let it be known that I'm walking into this with my eyes open.)