Have your standards of modesty (in dress) changed over time?

Has what you do in the name of minhag hamakom or a certain sensitivity changed over time?

If so, what changed and why?

If not, what about your current standards are you happy with?


Changes for me...now I am much more careful with:

Wearing only tops with sleeves that fully cover the elbow
Wearing pantyhose (as a general rule)

Not wearing bright red
Not wearing the neckline somewhat gaping (gave the problematic tops away)

I attribute these changes to the influence of the brainwashers (I say that in a very positive way) at seminary.

[or perhaps the whole seminary / Israel experience...It has been known to trigger a variety of reactions.]

I am very used to these changes now and am confident that I am plenty tznius and eidel ETA: in my mode of dress. I was only ever referring to this topic, but I guess it can't hurt to be super-specific. Though summer and hose are not the easiest combo.

Isn't that a tad dangerous to assume about oneself? Are we able to make those kinds of self judgments?
As the berayta in Berachot 29a says, al taamin be-etzmecha ad yom motcha, and all that.

The Rabbis at the Mir said it's not tznius to talk about tznius.

There has been ample time and opportunity for the tzniyus police to voice any concerns in a diplomatic way and come at me with spears and yet...nothing.

this is a highly sarcastic comment? they are the ones who had that whole married men only rally so they could instruct their wives in the proper derech?

No. Not sarcastic. And not a contradiction. That was telling them things are getting out of hand and they should wake up and get their act together. This was saying don't go around talking about what is and what isn't Tznious (especially not about other people).

And if you think about it... it isn't exactly modest to say you are modest - now is it?

I am so glad I asked, I wasn't sure if that could be taken literally or not.
So in the quest to uphold this area of halacha, people can be tempted to speak badly of others, which just creates more sin.
The message was to put your own house in order and stop talking about the tznius misdemeanours of other people.
Just wondering, do you know if extra Torah learning was suggested in this context, or was it purely focused on these two.



I have thought about it.
Maybe you are right in a broad way, but in this context I assure you that my aim is not to showcase my modesty (or prove my lack thereof.) In any case the topic is the modesty of dress, not of persona. I hoped my sharing of some personal experience would facilitate that of others.
I am interested in finding out more about how / why people change their personal habits in this area, as it can become a very emotional issue. Many people struggle with this on a day-to-day basis.

This is not a perfect analogy, but would you have a problem with this elul thread:
"Every year, getting up for selichos is a major struggle for me. So far this year, I have gone every time and it has been great. How has everyone else been going so far?"

My dress is strictly influenced by minhag hamikem. Once i get outa here, which is bh VERY soon, my dress is gonna change completely.

I don't recall extra Torah learning being mentioned.



Then let this be an eye-opener for you. The two are one and the same.



I sympathize with you. But the Meam Loez (and other musser sefarim) speak at length using very strong language to warn one to be wary of those that make "a false showing of piety." This is compared to a chazer (a pig) that proudly shows off it's split hooves to say it's kosher when it's not. (This is why the pig is treated with so much more disdain than other non-kosher animals - it is more dangerous because it appears on the outside as kosher.)

As for what exactly makes something "a false showing of piety." The Meam Loez explains that if you go out of your way to show how pious you are it is a false showing (he brings a story of a woman who told her husband she didn't want to go for a walk with him outside the house because other men might see her. What follows is a looong exciting story that showed the woman was in fact not pious at all. The Meam Loez doesn't say there is anything wrong with the fact that she didn't want to leave the house. His issue was that she explained it was because other men might see her. She should have just made another excuse like I don't feel like walking right now.)

In fact another example the Meam Loez brings is very similar to your slichos example. He writes about someone that is fasting to do tscuvah and says - get this - that you are not supposed to tell anyone you are fasting! If someone offers you food you are to tell them you don't feel like eating or something. He said however you should not lie if asked directly "Are you fasting?" He said then you are permitted to tell them the truth because that is not going out of your way purposely to make a showing of piety.

It would seem then that if one was fasting to do tscuvah - which certainly is hard - they should not try to form support groups and tell others about their piety. A truly pious person will not be concerned in the slightest about other's opinions of them.

Do you feel confined at all? Do you feel less able to express your personality through what you wear at the moment?

Good answer.

No, i dont think I can. I hate how my town everything is so focused on the chizonius and not on the inside. Uch it makes me so angry.

Ooh, I hope these quotes are done right this time.



Do you mind explaining how they are the same?
A girl can dress but not act / be tznua but I think less likely the other way. [hmmm your post would suggest that I am one of those but I hope I am not]
I just don't see how you can say they are one and the same when tznius goes way beyond clothing (though that is perhaps the easiest aspect of modesty to fulfill, despite its difficulties.)



I am more familiar with the concept of not advertising one's sins, this is definitely a higher level.

Nowadays now, perhaps this is not always the ideal. Would you be against big tzedaka donations being made public?
They encourage others to give more, but yet comes at the risk of inflating the ego of the giver.

Anyway, I was encouraged in sem (not as in I was told this and therefore it is right, but as in I think this is a good idea) to tell others of my kabalos on yom kippur, to help keep myself to account during the year. Yes, I know we are being held to account by Hakadosh Baruch Hu, but from personal experience, mere mortals who aspire to be truly pious can benefit from friendly reminders from others. A couple of my friends know one of the things I took on this year, and I know one of the things they are working on. It has been helpful in the past.

I admit that I am not on such an elevated level, that all my middos makeovers can take place fully by own steam, without breathing a word about them to anybody.

I certainly do not wish to show off or be immodest. False piety? I think I am sincere and my actions are not on a surface level like the chazer in the analogy but then what would I know, I am not a truly pious person.

How did you get this part from the Meam Loez?

I challenge that statement.
Is it enough for our actions to be kosher, don't they have to look kosher too ?
[I remember something about courts to be seen to be just]

But the Rambam in hilchot Dei'ot says
כשם שהחכם ניכר בחכמתו ובדעותיו, והוא מובדל בהן משאר העם--כך צריך שיהיה ניכר במעשיו, במאכלו ובמשקהו ובבעילתו ובעשיית צרכיו ובדיבורו ובהילוכו ובמלבושו ובכלכול דבריו ובמשאו ובמתנו: ויהיו כל המעשים האלו, נאים ומתוקנים ביותר
and in the next chapter he says
דרך ברייתו של אדם--להיות נמשך בדעותיו ובמעשיו אחר ריעיו וחבריו, ונוהג במנהג אנשי מדינתו.

In other words, the perception of others is indeed important.

Lucky you being able to move
It's probably very frustrating to live in a place you don't like.

A truly pious person will be ,ניכר במעשיו, במאכלו ובמשקהו ובבעילתו ובעשיית צרכיו ובדיבורו ובהילוכו ובמלבושו ובכלכול דבריו ובמשאו ובמתנו . It is an objective statement; the pious him/herself will not be concerned with the opinion of others. Think of Howard Roark of The Fountainhead.
Secondly Rambam is stating human nature. Must we not strive for something greater?

How can we have good self-esteem if we doubt ourselves till that day?
Hmmm and if Bruria...then kal vachomer your average Nechama Dina.

You know her, too?!

I think it takes a balance. I think we need a certain degree of confidence but that we are on the right path, not that we are already at our destination.

There's much more to tzniyus than how one is dressed.

Yes


Yes (If I understand the question correctly.)


What- personal.
Why- due to halachic concerns, or personal sensitivity.

There is always room to improve, but I'm fairly confident that my mode of dress conforms to halachic standards.

True, as in the analogy of the runner moving up a steep hill-confidently moving further along the path, never resting for fear of backsliding.

Can you say how you became aware of the halachic concerns?

Did you develop the sensitivity by being around people who were sensitive to that thing?

I like We should focus on always going up. Lovely.


NB: Read this if you are in a negative mood:

[are we worried that our children's foothold in the religion is so precarious that one small variation in the runner's path will cause them too fall off the great awe-inspiring mountain of Orthodoxy?]

Right. That's the distinction I was trying to make - a person can be confident that one's mode of dress conforms to halachic standards (eg. no large hoop earings, no visible zippers, no heart shaped images...anything a stewardess wouldn't do). Halachic standards are generally objective (or should be) - you either can or can't do something within certain parameters.
However, to assert that one is "tznius and eidel", I'm not sure how a person could self-describe like that since those are far more subjective than objective halachic standards would be.

No. Tznius is not something that I've ever had a yetzer hara for. Though I suppose it helps that I don't believe you have to wear stockings or a shirt buttoned all the way up to your chin or long sleeves (covering the elbow is enough).

Yea, real tznius to talk about that. Faker.

I don't agree that there's always room to improve; this is the fallacy of the tznius obsessed OPS.

If you don't believe that wearing stockings is necessary to being perfectly tznius (as I mentioned above, for example), then wearing them doesn't make you more tznius. Inventing new tznius rules doesn't make you more tznius either. Someone who dresses a la Rabbi Falk is not more tznius than I am, who doesn't.

My avatar is a picture of a perfectly tznius person, according to some opinions, which are just as legitimate as Rabbi Falk's opinion.

I don't consider that tznius, more of a minhag hamakom thing.

What mode of dress do you consider would exude REAL tznius, I would like to know.

Pantyhose = tznius
Panty 'Hoes = not tznius

Indeed. There is far more to tzniusdik behavior than simply maximally covering. For example, R. Falk dismisses very long skirts and even a face covering as not tzanu'ot even though they cover more.
And more importantly, hilchot tzniut covers far, far more than one's mode of dress.


That's where you're wrong - a woman can always be more disempowered and more silenced. We should be zocheh that women once again know their place, which is nowhere anywhere around men. Except for purposes of cooking and procreating.

I don't care about tznius. It's more of a thing you worry about when your life is shallow and you have nothing better to think about.

Aha maybe that's how the thinking = false piety etc came into play. I was only referring to my being clothed in a way that is tznius and eidel, I was for sure not making a statement about how I view my character. I edited it to be more specific, I thought it was clear that I was merely talking about the clothes aspect. Thus warranting the claim that tznius police supervision is sufficient enough to keep me up to standard on that aspect.Would you care if your wife walked around in a bikini all the time, or would you prefer she covered up?

No one walks around in a bikini all the time. That has nothing to do with the kind of tznius you are talking about.
That's like asking you if you would mind if your husband walks around in a gorilla suit all the time.

So true.

It's no wonder that suffragettes were also advocates of clothing reform.

This does not contradict what the Meam Loaz says. I may have poorly worded it.

A truly pious person would not be concerned with others knowing they are acting piously. So someone fasting to do tscuvah would not care about others knowing they are fasting. And someone davening extra piously would be perfectly content standing somewhere where no one can see them (as supposed to the practice of women davening outside where everyone can see them.)

Thinking - I am not drawing conclusions. The Meam Loez writes this explicitly. He does however say if you are at a table and people are doing something that violates halacha that is not a time to be silent but you must speak up and tell them it is wrong to do that certain thing.

Also, I heard a story about Rav Dessler ZTL that supports your claim. I heard that when Rav Dessler wanted to quit smoking the first thing he did was tell everyone that he quit smoking. "Did you hear? I quit smoking?" Then when ever he was around people he would be able to overcome his urge to smoke since his "yetzar hara" was more concern with making sure people do think he's a lier.

Plus, there definily is a good argument to be made for "leading by example" and inspiring others to follow your lead. But I don't think the Meam Loez would call that a "false showing." It seems to me that a "false showing" is something where there is absolutely no benefit to the act at all other than "showing off" your holiness for the sake of showing off. Truly pious people don't "show off" for the sake of "showing off." This should not come as a surprise to anyone.

Okay, is a miniskirt and tank top a more realistic suggestion?

I am just trying to suggest that maybe you do care about tznius somewhat, in the realm of not exposing a lot of skin in public.

No I don't care. Have better things to worry about. Obviously there are some standards of decency in society, but you seem to be proud of the fact that you are taking it to an extreme and seem to believe that you are on some sort of new spiritual level for doing so. Would you like the iron panty award?

In regard to behaviour, I think R. Falk has some very good ideas which can apply to males and females.For example...Not tzanua / refined tocongregate in big loud groups with your friends on the streetshout a conversation on your phone in publicchew gumAnything more than the current societal standard is an extreme?

R. Falk promises in his introduction to provide sources for his "halachot". When he finishes that project, I would love to see a separate sefer on tzanu'a dress and behavior for males, complete with Friday night study sessions and claims that the ge'ulah will only come about as a result of men being tzanu'a in dress and behavior. Of course, there is going to have to be disclaimer that tzanu'a behavior does not apply at hafganot.

Thinking - Regarding your question about are they truly the same I am reminded of a poster that the Agudah distributed a several years ago.

I searched for it but could not find it online. However I did find an old aishdas posting where someone posted the entire text of the poster. I am not by any means a fan of everything Agudah says, does, or stands for - however I believe they got this poster right.

The poster was described as

ETA: This is the Aishdas link: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n132.shtml#08

You didn't read my post (or at least didn't address it)

Do they really make those? (The panties, not the award.)

By learning halacha.
Some yes, some no.





Ok, but it's also possible that someone has the same tznius standards as you do now, but grew up wearing tight pants and tank tops. Not because of yetzer hara, per se, but becasue that's what was "done" in their world.


Ok, I disagree with you, and I am definitely not a tznius-obsessed member of the OPS.
I also know that personally, I have room to improve within halacha. I mostly cover my hair with a sheitel, although I believe that wearing a sheitel is a (perfectly reliable) kulah.

When I mention that there is always room to improve, I'm not talking about buttoning your top button instead of keeping it open but with a shell undeneath- I'm talking about halacha, as well as underlying tznius and eidelkeit. It's possible that someone who dresses a la Rabbi Falk is more tzanua than you, it's possible she isn't. As I'm sure you'll agree, a list of rules is not the be all and end all when you're talking about an area that encompasses middos.

Which comes first, the attitude, or the true piety? Are you saying the attitude results from the piety?

So a truly pious girl would reject the offer to become head of the chesed committee, making herself look lazy and ruin her shidduch chances and would choose to do publicly invisible chesed instead. A hard ask. I don't think there are huge numbers of those sort of people around.



What a good story.



No, that wouldn't. Your initial post seemed to have a different emphasis though. Keeping what you just said in mind, can you please link your view back to the OP? I don't know if you have changed your view or are just looking at the situation differently.

Why aren't you tznius-obsessed? Do you not agree with the following post replying to a blog:



I married such person, so they exist. It's just that those who shidduch date are at a disadvantage.

the Ohr Hachaim in parashas acharei (toward the end of parsha) says talking about these things even about the negative aspect (when not needed) is also wrong.



One may be upset about how people mind other peoples business whether you live in London, Williamsburg, Bnei Brak or any other holy enclave. However to say that the way one dresses is called focusing on chitzoinios is in my humble opinion wrong.

If you say that the community needs to focus more on the inside I would perhaps agree.

Oh and by the way, (wait it shouldn’t be “by the way”) Mazel Tov on your recent engagement may you have many happy years together.

I'm not sure what your point is. What do you think would be more tznius than wearing a sheitel, and why?


Well, obviously if we're taking tznius globally. I thought we were just talking about modes of dress.

Hogwash.

(Couldn't figure out how to quote the blog.)
Hashem Yeracheim.


Hat/scarf/etc. I will bli neder post the appropriate sources tomorrow, I don't have them with me atm.
Though the topic title focused on modes of dres, it seemed that many members were taking it further.

Apparently Melech's wife is one such lady.