1. Soon as we have a couple of families for lunch, it's typically 15-20 people including kids of many ages. So we've gotten away from appetizers like fish and soup because the kids get restless and sometimes it's easier just to launch right into the main course and side dishes, just put everything on the table at once, especially when it's after shul and people are hungry.
What do you think of that?

2. We were at a lunch and what they do is bench right after the main course + side dishes, but before dessert. That seems to make sense, becasue what happens is after the main course + side dishes, the adults usually want to sit around and talk [except me; socializing is torture and I just want to go read a book, but for reasons of shalom bayit I sit and smile and converse] and the kids disappear to play and then come back later when dessert is served, and then they disappear again till they are called for benching. So it seems to make sense to bentch right away when everyone is still at the table, and clean up liesurely, and then call the kids back for dessert when the hosts are ready and the adults have had a chance to talk. [The people where we saw this also said that it avoids the safek of whether dessert during a meal needs separate berachot].
What do you think of that?

1. Buffet style. That works better for the day (no soup) and works well with lotsa' guests. Our dining room can't hold that many people, but I definitely see the advantage of doing it that way.

2. I don't like this because it may be a bracha she-ainah tzreicha. Also, we like the meal to progress with no 'extra' socializing. (We're okay with a bit during meal), but neither of us have interest in making special socialization time.

3. You should never have to call kids for dessert. They should have a sixth sense and no what it is. I don't think my watch has ever gotten past 90 seconds before the kids show up for dessert.

1. i think soup is important, especially if people eat it only on shabbos, and not during the week. come to think of it, fish is important, too - lol, but i'm sure, gefilte can be skipped with no health deprivation issues. also, some people can't imagine shabbos without hot chicken soup (FYI? )

i hardly have gefilte now, and soup is there only because this is when i started cooking it - before shabbos, and it lasts us the whole week.

2. it's an interesting idea. i think i would prefer to eat, then talk, then dessert and then bentching right away - why a break between the last two?

[note to myself: do not go to Melech's house for the seuda when in town. or in your house you ARE talkative?]

I like both suggestions. I usually do not like appetizers, especially fish, and that means I have to sit there for 20 minutes not eating anything.

I also don't like socializing and the main obstacle to leaving is bentching. If you get that out of the way then you are clear to leave. The problem is that if you are the host and you like to use bentching as the "Ok, it's time for everyone to get going" hint then you are out of luck.

You do what works for you. Since when is there a chiyuv to have a million courses?
Sometimes we'll do appetizers other than fish/soup, but it's really not needed. It's also easier for the person (people) serving to have fewer longer courses than a lot of short ones.
(To echo VLG- it's the worst when you go somewhere and they serve everyone fish and then liver. 40 minutes of challah crumb eating fidgeting....)

yeah, true that.


I thought about that, but then I thought of h.com threads where "certain h.com members" have discussed doing something very similar on shavuot for example, or to create a shaloshudes in the winter.


Yeah, but we don't really do that because we have no place to put the food and it means people traipsing back and forth to the kitchen. We just find it easier to put everything on the dining room table.

1. YEs, I can't imagine Friday night without soup.



Because of the many people not liking fish, that's when salads should be served, if there will be any.

Another idea to use is if there's a local minyan that has a 2 o'clock or 1:30 (i.e. early mincha) say that you want to 'catch it' so that's a good way to get out. Unfortunately, where I live there's only one local minyan (unless he wants to walk an hour) so it won't work for my husband.

1. Why not have an appetizer like a fruit cup that even kids will like?

2. Don't like it. I'm also not fond of socializing and it seems like if you bentch then you're forced to socialize even more because unlike VLG, I don't think it's okay to leave if it's known that there's still another course to be served.

I dislike most of the garbage bowls people like to call "salads."

Yes, the early minyan is a good excuse. Of course, if I told that to someone there would be no way to convince them I wasn't joking.

Again, it's a shalom bayit issue. I am under strict instructions to even be polite. [And there are lists of phrases I'm not allowed to use, like "orthodox power structure" and "perniciously evil shidduch system"...] But people like my wife and kids so they tolerate me and my presence.


1. it's not so much an issue of what the kids will or won't like, as much as an issue of people being hungry and wanting to launch into the meal, and also that it's easier not to bother with a whole other serving.

1. Basar v'dagim...what do you do about that? [Or you don't hold that you need fish Shabbos day?]

2. It's interesting...but weird because dessert is part of the meal. Did you know that the dessert was coming later on? Because I would be disappointed otherwise. But it's a good idea because I'm usually too full for dessert and just eat it because it looks good and then I can barely walk home. However, halacha-wise is it okay?

i didn't realize we are talking about shabbos afternoon seuda, i thought it's the friday night one.




can't imagine being at your house for the seuda and not hearing those

1. I have fish at seudah shlishit.
2. Well, FYI raised that issue as well with regard to a berachah she-einah tzerichah, and I replied that I'm not convinced that's the case.

Vizhnitz (Monsey?) bentch before desert for this reason.

My mistake for not being clear in the OP. This is strictly shabbat lunch I'm talking about.[it's unusual for us to go out or have company Fri. night because the dad needs to go to sleep early on Fridays]Interesting, thanks.

1. It's SHABBOS, not lunch hour at a construction site... How can you not eat salads, fish, soup (yesh omrim that you are patur in the summer) etc??? I always try to avoid people's houses who take longer to say anim zemiros than eat their seuda... Sorry but even with my minimal level of manners and class it sounds "uncouth" to me...

2. Absolutely Fine, and it can help get those 100 brachos in, and especially in the winter months or when you don't start eating until 2:30 can count as shalosheedus... Oh and I read once that there IS no concept of "bracha sheaino tzreicha" (within reason) on Shabbos because of the inyan to be marbe brachos...

Basar V'Dagim, according to my minhag, means basar OR dagim.
Lunch doesn't need soup, IMO.
Lunch is always laid back by us. We do have one appetizer, fish or chopped liver and avocado salad. Cholent and a kugel and a veggie. Dessert -- sometimes.
It's really enough.
And in Holland, dessert is separate so they can have milchigs an hour later. You have precedence.

2. I gave other reasons why I don't like it as well, that was just one point


(so he won't be grumpy come to the social meal?)

ooooh. i thought it's shabbos night seuda, cause you mentioned soup.

does anyone eat soup in the afternoon?

Because people have to buy, prepare, serve, and cleanup all of that. Of course, when you drag your woman by her hair back to your cave, I'm sure she'll be more than happy to do all that and you'll have it all on your white linen tablecloths. Oh. But yeah, I think people eat soup. We've had it in a crock pot that sits all night, instead of chulent.

Sometimes.
If you can make chulent in a crock-pot, why not soup?

Not according to my minhag, but I recognize that many people don't do it that way. Do you not have any chasidish blood?
Does lunch ever have soup?

Nope. I have NO chassidish blood (out of 8 grandparents, pretty surprising, no?) Lotsa' litvish in me though

I grew up without cholent every Shabbos (sacrilegious, I know) but in its stead soup from the blech. Split pea barley usually.

Me, chassidish blood? I don't think a drop.

Wow. Live and learn. But you still had chamin so you're okay. Better than the fruit soup people!

So I guess it's a chasidish thing to have fish Shabbos day?

i guess. is the soup instead of cholent, then? cause otherwise you'll need two crockpots.

oh, and isn't yekkishe cholent very much like soup (i think that's what it was when i ate it once)?

Aruch Ha-shulchan Orach chaim 271:9.And really, basar is basar, not chicken. Are you makpedet to have real meat?It's not. The chassidim didn't invent halachah. The question is if one is obligated to have fish at the second meal if one has meat.

We have real meat Shabbos day, but not usually Friday night (unless we have deli roll). But I think that's probably a financial necessity.


I wasn't talking about halacha. I was talking about minhag. So the question is who eats fish Shabbos day. Based on my little observation, it seemed like people who have chassidish blood eat fish Shabbos day, and others don't. But I really never looked into it.

Well, I aint chassidish [that may come as a shock to you] and I b'n am makpid to try to have fish at seudah shlishit*, for what that's worth.

*my mother-in-law lives next door to the shul and she keeps tuna or lox for me. Everyone coddles me.

I don't believe so.


Hmm...Need to ask my husband about this one.


Nope. My husband likes to eat fish at every meal (and sometimes sneaks some meat from somewhere else for the other seudos)

In my current household,
We always have fish or meat as an appetizer Friday night. Shabbos day we have meat in cholent. Sometimes gefilte fish, sometimes not. Either gefilte fish or tuna S"S.
In my parents' house: hard to know since the menu can range from meatloaf to roast to chicken for a main course. Sometimes fish, sometimes not. Sometimes beef in soup, sometimes not. I never really paid attention whether there was always basar if not dagim.

I have what to look up, too.


b'n Ill try to dig up some sources.

If my father would be eating in your house Friday night and you served meat as an appetizer, he would probably take a bite of fish when he got home.

I actually think each time we have had a non-related guest, we did have gefilte fish. I haven't served meat as an appetizer in a while.

I don't know, I like Shabbos to be "special" and mechubad and not just some meal to stuff our faces and then chap a shluff. I think it should at LEAST resemble the lowest level of "fanciness" and complexity one would expect at a restaurant or catered meal which is an appetizer/fish, soup/salad, main course w/ sides and dessert.

I'm not saying that you have to make oragami napkins, have gold plated china, white gloved servants, or 14 karat gold silverware, let alone melon sculptures or three tiered cakes but to throw all the food on the table at once, not even bother to serve courses and to have everyone fress as fast as possible and then leave the table seems very shlumpy and low class to me and is "yeshiva lunch" and not a Shabbos Seuda...

Hey, you ASKED what we think...

One thing I would love someone to explain to me is why people daven vasikin on Simchas Torah. One person says he does it because then he's done his meal by 11 and has the whole rest of the day to do what he wants. What exactly can he be doing all day on Simchas Torah???

Yeah, but launching right into the main course+side dishes, without appetizers, is not the same as fressing as fast as possible, it means starting as fast as possible [which is laudable - I realize the Mishnah Berurah is speaking of kiddush, but still, there's value in serving people quickly].
And nobody's suggesting leaving the table very quickly - don't forget part 2, where davka lunch is taking a long time [and hence the kids leaving to play].

So it's hardly a construction site / yeshivah type situation.

And the food isn't thrown on the table at once, it's brought to the table and served, just without appetizers as separate courses.

As for chapping a shluff, don't forget not all of us wake up 20 minutes before lunch. And some of us even get out of our pajamas

... with the wife as a waitress.

sorry, couldn't resist

Also daughters and female guests.....

My husband did this. It meant that he could help take the kids dancing, and help entertain them during the break before kol hana'arim - catch a snack in between, etc. And then after all the chaos, he could rest a little - as opposed to start a whole seudah then.

So he has from two o'clock until seven o'clock to do what he wants. But then didn't he have to miss a big chunk of hakafos the night before in order to be rested enough to go to vasikin?

And FYI, you slipped (note the bolded).

No. He is used to getting up early. But, he also was able to take a nap afterwards if he chose (I don't remember what he chose)

What did I slip???

You wrote "kids" instead of the correct "k" word.

Good catch.

kids = kinderlach. We use both in our everyday talk.

This makes perfect sense to me. I think shabbat lunch can be a much less formal occassion than shabbat dinner, and so doesn't really require all the various courses of appetizers before the main meal. Especially with a lot of young children around I think this approach makes a lot of sense, as little kids won't have the patience to wait. My mother handles shabbat lunches in much the same way as you describe and no one has any complaints. If anything, we're always telling her to prepare fewer appetizers and side dishes (for dinner and lunch), because she is always busy trying to accomodate everyone's personal preferences.

You guys should hear my Yiddish vocab now. I'm learning yiddish and now I gotta' gantza vocabulary.

Of all weeks, last Shabbos we had real meat.

Not a leaf falls by happenstance.

[And last week, the night of that basar ve-dagim discussion, my youngest son asks what a vegetarian is, and my youngest daughter pipes up that it's not allowed b/c it's a mitzvah to have fish and meat on shabbat].