- שר האופים
- המן
- יאשקע
mosheshmeal
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Full Version: שר האופים
According to the Ariza"l, the שר האופים was megilglel 3 times, and each time he was 'strung up'.
mosheshmeal
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mosheshmeal
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QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Nov 29 2007, 05:20 PM) 
According to the Ariza"l, the שר האופים was megilglel 3 times, and each time he was 'strung up'.
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- שר האופים
- המן
- יאשקע
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Nice. I did not know.
Is it possible Saddam was the 4th gilgul?
Goyim can be melgalgel as Jews?? I didn't know that...
And what is the Sar Haofim's kesher? He didn't seem that bad, certainly no Haman or Yoshkie
And what is the Sar Haofim's kesher? He didn't seem that bad, certainly no Haman or Yoshkie
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Nov 29 2007, 05:50 PM)
תניא בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו ארבעים יום לפני שהוא יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבוא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב פסח אמר עולא ותסברא בר הפוכי זכות הוא...(סנהדרין מ“ג ע“א(
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Nov 29 2007, 07:30 PM)
תניא בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו ארבעים יום לפני שהוא יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל כל מי שיודע לו זכות יבוא וילמד עליו ולא מצאו לו זכות ותלאוהו בערב פסח אמר עולא ותסברא בר הפוכי זכות הוא...(סנהדרין מ“ג ע“א(
Thats how he died?
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QUOTE(doodlehead @ Nov 29 2007, 06:39 PM)
Thats how he died?
Well, it's a machlokes rishonim who that gemara talks about, but whoever it's talking about died like that.
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Nov 29 2007, 07:42 PM)
Well, it's a machlokes rishonim who that gemara talks about, but whoever it's talking about died like that.
I always thought he was stoned. Or at least crucified.
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QUOTE(doodlehead @ Nov 29 2007, 06:52 PM)
I always thought he was stoned. Or at least crucified.
Certainly not stoned. Where did you get that from?
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Nov 30 2007, 03:12 AM)
Certainly not stoned. Where did you get that from?
תניא בערב הפסח תלאוהו לישו והכרוז יוצא לפניו ארבעים יום לפני שהוא יוצא ליסקל על שכישף והסית והדיח את ישראל
Besides "hanging" is not one of the 4 methods of execution. They used to hang the DEAD bodies after the deed was done...
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Nov 29 2007, 07:45 PM)
Goyim can be melgalgel as Jews?? I didn't know that...
Maybe because there weren't 'real' yidden in those days yet?
QUOTE
And what is the Sar Haofim's kesher? He didn't seem that bad, certainly no Haman or Yoshkie
Good question.
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Nov 29 2007, 08:39 PM)
The way I understand it, he was killed in a standard 'Misass Beis Din' (I don't recall which), and then he was strung up, as they did.
BTW, that's the origin of Easter Eggs.
mosheshmeal
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QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Nov 29 2007, 08:29 PM)
The way I understand it, he was killed in a standard 'Misass Beis Din' (I don't recall which), and then he was strung up, as they did.
mosheshmeal
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mosheshmeal
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But he wasnt hung to death like haman.
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QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Nov 29 2007, 06:45 PM)
And what is the Sar Haofim's kesher? He didn't seem that bad, certainly no Haman or Yoshkie
QUOTE(Beraishis Rabba 88:5-6, daat)
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אמר לו: את בשרתני בשורה טובה, אף אני אבשרך בשורה טובה, בעוד שלושת ימים וגו'.
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אמר לו: את בשרתני בשורה רעה, אף אני מבשרך בשורה רעה, בעוד שלושת ימים וגו'.
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אמר לו: את בשרתני בשורה טובה, אף אני אבשרך בשורה טובה, בעוד שלושת ימים וגו'.
clip
אמר לו: את בשרתני בשורה רעה, אף אני מבשרך בשורה רעה, בעוד שלושת ימים וגו'.
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The Midrash is too long to quote fully. To my understanding it interprets the details of the dreams as they refer to the history of Bnei Yisrael.
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Nov 29 2007, 06:30 PM)
יוצא ליסקל
QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Nov 29 2007, 07:12 PM)
Certainly not stoned.
OK, I feel very stupid.
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Nov 29 2007, 06:20 PM)
According to the Ariza"l, the שר האופים was megilglel 3 times, and each time he was 'strung up'.
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- שר האופים
- המן
- יאשקע
.
Interesting, considering this link:
QUOTE
QUOTE
It was reported in the name of Rabbi Chaim of Zanz that Mendelssohn was a great Torah scholar and potentially had the power to do tremendous good, but his soul's source was intrinsically evil and therefore he sinned and caused others to sin as well. In fact he was a reincarnation of "Oto ha-Ish" who had visited the world three times: Before the destruction of the Second Temple, as Mendelssohn and as one of the Maskilim of Italy [the writer had forgotten his name. Possibly Samuel David Luzzatto (Shadal)]. To counter Mendelssohn, God had sent the soul of the Chasam Sofer to the world. (She'elot u-Teshuvot Levushei Mordechai, Yoreh De'ah (Tolcsva 1912), Siman 88.)
R. Y. Tassuig, Beit Yisrael ha-Shalem, 4 (Jerusalem 1976), p. 100, cited in the name of his rabbi, Rabbi Shmuel Rosenberg of Hunsdorf.
One is forced to conclude one of the following:
- Mendelssohn and Shadal were also שר האופים, which doesn't fit with the Arizal because neither was hanged
- Rabbi Chaim of Zanz was wrong
- The Arizal was wrong
- One or both was simply speaking midrashically and didn't mean they really believed this to be actually true.
- They were both speaking literally and were both wrong (probably because R' Saadia Gaon was right and the idea of gilgulim should have no place in Judaism).
שר האופים האָט זיך געדרײט בײ יוסף'נ, המן בײ מרדכי'ן און יאיזעל בײ רבי יהושע בן פרחיה. יעדער האָט מתקן געװעזן אַביסל, עם אױפגעאַרבעט פון אַגראָבער גױ ביז אַ ממזר תלמיד חכם. לאַחריתו װעט ער דאַרפֿן אַזאַ אַ צדיק עם מתקן צו זײַן װאָס דער װעלט נאָך נישט געזעהען.
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Nov 29 2007, 06:20 PM)
According to the Ariza"l, the שר האופים was megilglel 3 times, and each time he was 'strung up'.
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- שר האופים
- המן
- יאשקע
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Where does the Arizal say this?
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Nov 29 2007, 06:45 PM)
And what is the Sar Haofim's kesher? He didn't seem that bad, certainly no Haman or Yoshkie
Not everything he did is written in the Torah.
(Which leads to the question of extra-Torah events in the lives of minor players in the Torah and the place of Midrash.)
QUOTE(grend123 @ Dec 1 2007, 08:11 PM)
Interesting, considering this link:
R. Y. Tassuig, Beit Yisrael ha-Shalem, 4 (Jerusalem 1976), p. 100, cited in the name of his rabbi, Rabbi Shmuel Rosenberg of Hunsdorf.
One is forced to conclude one of the following:
R. Y. Tassuig, Beit Yisrael ha-Shalem, 4 (Jerusalem 1976), p. 100, cited in the name of his rabbi, Rabbi Shmuel Rosenberg of Hunsdorf.
One is forced to conclude one of the following:
- Mendelssohn and Shadal were also שר האופים, which doesn't fit with the Arizal because neither was hanged
- Rabbi Chaim of Zanz was wrong
- The Arizal was wrong
- One or both was simply speaking midrashically and didn't mean they really believed this to be actually true.
- They were both speaking literally and were both wrong (probably because R' Saadia Gaon was right and the idea of gilgulim should have no place in Judaism).
I just want to say that even though I still think Shadal was a good candidate for who was intended, I think Yashar (Isaac Samuel Reggio) might be an even better candidate.
QUOTE(artscroll @ Dec 3 2007, 11:44 AM)
I just want to say that even though I still think Shadal was a good candidate for who was intended, I think Yashar (Isaac Samuel Reggio) might be an even better candidate.
yashar and shadal are more worth than all those rabbis combined.
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Dec 1 2007, 11:02 PM)
Where does the Arizal say this?
Likitei Toireh, I'm told. Will try to zoom in more when I get a chance.
QUOTE(grend123 @ Dec 1 2007, 09:11 PM)
Interesting, considering [url=
Nu nu.
Incidentally, i heard b'shem the Yismach Moshe that Mendelsohn was a gilgul of Yoshke.
mosheshmeal
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QUOTE(krumlikeapretzel @ Nov 29 2007, 07:42 PM)
Well, it's a machlokes rishonim who that gemara talks about, but whoever it's talking about died like that.
Who's listed as alternate candidates?
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Dec 3 2007, 09:04 PM)
Nu nu.
What does the nu nu mean? As someone who presumably takes this sort of stuff seriously, what do you actually believe about this stuff?
QUOTE(grend123 @ Dec 4 2007, 12:14 AM)
What does the nu nu mean? As someone who presumably takes this sort of stuff seriously, what do you actually believe about this stuff?
Conflicting midrashim, perhaps.
mosheshmeal
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QUOTE(Dovid @ Dec 3 2007, 09:40 PM)
Who's listed as alternate candidates?
Someone else who lived about 100 years before that. Historians call this person "proto-Jesus"
QUOTE(exsatmar @ Dec 3 2007, 11:55 AM)
yashar and shadal are more worth than all those rabbis combined.
What does it matter, really?
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Dec 3 2007, 09:04 PM)
Nu nu.
Incidentally, i heard b'shem the Yismach Moshe that Mendelsohn was a gilgul of Yoshke.
Incidentally, i heard b'shem the Yismach Moshe that Mendelsohn was a gilgul of Yoshke.
That's nothing compared to what Bnei Yisoschor said about Mendelsohn.
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Dec 4 2007, 02:04 AM)
Incidentally, i heard b'shem the Yismach Moshe that Mendelsohn was a gilgul of Yoshke.
mosheshmeal
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mosheshmeal
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QUOTE(shaya_getzl @ Dec 4 2007, 03:46 PM)
That's nothing compared to what Bnei Yisoschor said about Mendelsohn.
Compare that to the pithy mention of RM"D by the Chassam Sofer- who, unlike the above-mentioned Gedaulim, most likely formed his opinion on having actually read the 'Biur'.
And for all the histrionics of the Eastern Europeans, this cannot hide the fact that there are descendents of, for example, the Bnei Yissoschor or the Yismach Moishe (not to mention the 'Yessivisser Gedeylim') who are as bad as Mendelssohn's offspring.
QUOTE(schiffschul @ Dec 4 2007, 12:45 PM)
Compare that to the pithy mention of RM"D by the Chassam Sofer- who, unlike the above-mentioned Gedaulim, most likely formed his opinion on having actually read the 'Biur'.
And for all the histrionics of the Eastern Europeans, this cannot hide the fact that there are descendents of, for example, the Bnei Yissoschor or the Yismach Moishe (not to mention the 'Yessivisser Gedeylim') who are as bad as Mendelssohn's offspring.
And for all the histrionics of the Eastern Europeans, this cannot hide the fact that there are descendents of, for example, the Bnei Yissoschor or the Yismach Moishe (not to mention the 'Yessivisser Gedeylim') who are as bad as Mendelssohn's offspring.
Do you, for a change, actually know what Bnei Yisoschor said - or are you just forming opinions on basis of your assumptions about the "Eastern Europeans" ? He didn't deny his piety or learnedness.
And nobody used Yismach Moishe or Bnei Yisoschor's theological treatises to justify radical and debilitating changes of religious practices or theories.
QUOTE(shaya_getzl @ Dec 4 2007, 05:53 PM)
Do you, for a change, actually know what Bnei Yisoschor said - or are you just forming opinions on basis of your assumptions about the "Eastern Europeans" ? He didn't deny his piety or learnedness.
No, as it happens I do not know that particular Bnei Yissoschor. However, I think I can guess the general thrust from the way you mentioned it in response to MS.QUOTE
And nobody used Yismach Moishe or Bnei Yisoschor's theological treatises to justify radical and debilitating changes of religious practices or theories.
Hm... Are you sure about that? Some of the more outlandish claims by their latter-day adepts (which you can come across on this very site) might in some way or the other be considered doing just that. 
And for Heaven's sake- get rid of those Russicisms and start using articles: it's 'der Yismach Moishe' or 'der Bnei Yissoschor' in Yiddish as well...
QUOTE(schiffschul @ Dec 4 2007, 03:02 PM)
No, as it happens I do not know that particular Bnei Yissoschor. However, I think I can guess the general thrust from the way you mentioned it in response to MS.
The it's a fair ovservation that the general thrusted you in the wrong direction. You should disengage the thrustful assumptions and immediately inquire into the crux of subject matter.
QUOTE
Hm... Are you sure about that? Some of the more outlandish claims by their latter-day adepts (which you can come across on this very site) might in some way or the other be considered doing just that. You'd be hard pressed to find a latter day adept of either.
QUOTE
And for Heaven's sake- get rid of those Russicisms and start using articles: it's 'der Yismach Moishe' or 'der Bnei Yissoschor' in Yiddish as well...
Articles were done away with 1918 VKP( b ) decree about freedom from linguistical opression and mandatory defenestration of particulary declassed and pettily bourgois particles and articles of speech that serve no purpose but as reactionary impediments in expression of progressive thought.
QUOTE(mosheshmeal @ Dec 3 2007, 11:22 PM)
Conflicting midrashim, perhaps.
mosheshmeal
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mosheshmeal
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Ok. And what do you do with that?
QUOTE(grend123 @ Dec 4 2007, 05:41 PM)
Ok. And what do you do with that?
Eli v'eli.
QUOTE(artscroll @ Dec 6 2007, 09:57 AM)
Eli v'eli.
Eilu V'Eilu doesn't apply to history, only to halacha. You can't say two different things happened.
QUOTE(grend123 @ Dec 6 2007, 11:17 AM)
Eilu V'Eilu doesn't apply to history, only to halacha. You can't say two different things happened.
How can two opposite halachos both be right?
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QUOTE(grend123 @ Dec 6 2007, 11:17 AM)
Eilu V'Eilu doesn't apply to history, only to halacha. You can't say two different things happened.
No, but Eli v'eli does.Haha, just kidding. But seriously, if you check the sources where elu ve-elu actually appears in the Talmud, one of them is about a historical matter, not a halakhic opinion. (Gittin 6b)*While I agree that two things which are mutually exclusive didn't happen, evidently such may still be divrei elohim hayyim.*Interestingly, the Gemara there concludes that neither thing itself happened, rather a combination of the two things suggested.QUOTE(doodlehead @ Dec 6 2007, 11:21 AM)
How can two opposite halachos both be right?9
Not right, divrei elokim hayyim.
Getting back to the late lamented Baker, I pointed out to my son that Joseph spoke a very elegant Hebrew, and had a sense of humor too.
Joseph answers both Ministers with the same four words: "ישא פרעה את ראשך", literally "Pharoah will raise your head". To the Chief Bartender, Joseph explains that he will be restored to his post. Joseph then uses the same four words to the Baker - "Pharoah will raise your head" and then adds one more word: "מעלך" - literally - "from off your body".
My son replied: I don't think the Baker was amused.
Joseph answers both Ministers with the same four words: "ישא פרעה את ראשך", literally "Pharoah will raise your head". To the Chief Bartender, Joseph explains that he will be restored to his post. Joseph then uses the same four words to the Baker - "Pharoah will raise your head" and then adds one more word: "מעלך" - literally - "from off your body".
My son replied: I don't think the Baker was amused.
QUOTE(Dovid @ Dec 6 2007, 03:05 PM)
Getting back to the late lamented Baker, I pointed out to my son that Joseph spoke a very elegant Hebrew
Isn't it paraphrased / translated?
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