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dude
I thought of an interesting idea. Yosef had two dreams, the first that that eleven bundles of wheat were bowing down to his bundle. He then had another dream that 11 stars and the moon were bowing down to him.

There is a fundamental difference between the two dreams. In the first dream, Yosef himself doesn't appear. He is represented by his bundle, but in the second dream, the stars and moon didn't bow down to his star but rather to him himself.

The way to understand the difference, is that each dream refers to different time periods. The first dream describes the brothers' first trip to Mitzrayim when they had no reason to fear Yosef, and bowed down to him merely as a way to receive food. Hence, their need for 'a bundle' of wheat paid homage to Yosef's ability to provide it. During the subsequest trips, they did have reason to fear Yosef, as Yosef treated them as spies, when they bowed down, they therefore bowed down to Yosef himself, as the ruler who had the power of life and death over them.

According to this idea, that each of the two dreams depicts one of the two stages in the relationship between Yosef and his brothers as king, we can understand the two dreams of Pharoh in the same light. The first dream of the thin stalks swallowing up the plump stalks depicts the first stage of hunger where the population were losing the ability to provide food for themselves. The second dream of the thin cows swallowing up the healthy cows reflects the second stage, where the population were no longer able to afford to buy food and Yosef (as related in the pesukim) demanded that they barter their animals in exchange for food, hence the hunger went from swallowing up their food supply to swallowing up their animal supply.
existwhere?
QUOTE(dude @ Dec 1 2007, 06:40 PM) *
I thought of an interesting idea. Yosef had two dreams, the first that that eleven bundles of wheat were bowing down to his bundle. He then had another dream that 11 stars and the moon were bowing down to him.

There is a fundamental difference between the two dreams. In the first dream, Yosef himself doesn't appear. He is represented by his bundle, but in the second dream, the stars and moon didn't bow down to his star but rather to him himself.

The way to understand the difference, is that each dream refers to different time periods. The first dream describes the brothers' first trip to Mitzrayim when they had no reason to fear Yosef, and bowed down to him merely as a way to receive food. Hence, their need for 'a bundle' of wheat paid homage to Yosef's ability to provide it. During the subsequest trips, they did have reason to fear Yosef, as Yosef treated them as spies, when they bowed down, they therefore bowed down to Yosef himself, as the ruler who had the power of life and death over them.

Thank you for sharing this.

(Technical point:
In the first dream, all 12 are binding sheaves. Sheaves from the other 11 shevatim surround Yosef's sheaf and bow to it.
In the second dream, the sun (Yaakov), moon (Rochel), and 11 stars (shevatim) bow to Yosef himself.)


In the book The Riddle Of The Bowing Moon, Rabbi Eisemann notes this difference between these two dreams. The sheaves symbolized the food, as you said. In the first, the sheaf in the center didn't try to get the others to bow to it; they come of their own accord. This was meant to reassure his brothers that he wouldn't impose his kingship on them. Also, they are all sheaves- his ascendance is the result of his unique experiences, not being intrinsically greater than they.
(He continues that the second dream refers to the role of Yosef as the source of our ability to stay connected to the living legacy of Yaakov in galus, but too much to go into here.)
QUOTE
According to this idea, that each of the two dreams depicts one of the two stages in the relationship between Yosef and his brothers as king, we can understand the two dreams of Pharoh in the same light. The first dream of the thin stalks swallowing up the plump stalks depicts the first stage of hunger where the population were losing the ability to provide food for themselves. The second dream of the thin cows swallowing up the healthy cows reflects the second stage, where the population were no longer able to afford to buy food and Yosef (as related in the pesukim) demanded that they barter their animals in exchange for food, hence the hunger went from swallowing up their food supply to swallowing up their animal supply.

Where do you see these two stages? I vaguely remember it was first money, then animals, then land, and finally they sold themselves as slaves.
dude
QUOTE(existwhere? @ Dec 1 2007, 07:51 PM) *
Where do you see these two stages? I vaguely remember it was first money, then animals, then land, and finally they sold themselves as slaves.

Thanks for your reply. Since this is the realm of drush it is by nature 'speculative'. So if you have a better p'shat by all means share.

You are correct in that the mitzriyim wanted to trade their land and themselves in exchange for food, however, that is not quite what happened. Although Yosef had earlier taken the money and animals of the mitzriyim into Pharoh's possession in exchange for food, he never actually 'swallowed up' the land of the Egyptians, rather he removed them from their lands but at the same time provided alternative land in a different city conditional on them paying a 20% tax. (In a sense you could say that Yosef was the first anti-Communist).
existwhere?
QUOTE(dude @ Dec 2 2007, 10:32 AM) *
Thanks for your reply. Since this is the realm of drush it is by nature 'speculative'. So if you have a better p'shat by all means share.

You are correct in that the mitzriyim wanted to trade their land and themselves in exchange for food, however, that is not quite what happened. Although Yosef had earlier taken the money and animals of the mitzriyim into Pharoh's possession in exchange for food, he never actually 'swallowed up' the land of the Egyptians, rather he removed them from their lands but at the same time provided alternative land in a different city conditional on them paying a 20% tax. (In a sense you could say that Yosef was the first anti-Communist).

Just curious of your source for this. I remember it somewhat differently.
dude
QUOTE(existwhere? @ Dec 2 2007, 02:28 PM) *
Just curious of your source for this. I remember it somewhat differently.

Scripture...
existwhere?
QUOTE(dude @ Dec 2 2007, 08:38 PM) *
Scripture...

Chapter and verse...
dude
QUOTE(existwhere? @ Dec 2 2007, 09:44 PM) *
Chapter and verse...

Parshas Vayigash from Shevii onwards. Note there are many interpertations of exactly what Yosef did in respect of moving the Mitzriyim from one city to another. It can be understood as having been no more than a temporary exercise to drum home the idea that the rules of the game have changed, or it could have been permanent, in which case presumably re-allocation of arable land must have been a major headache. Some learn that the city bums were moved out to the country to do something useful for Pharoh. However you learn, it is clear that the land did not become completely state owned.
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