Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Nussach Of Korbanot
Hashkafah.com > Thinking Jewish > Divrei Torah & Essays
melech
1.
In the yehi ratzon before the ketoret, it says in many siddurim, 'bizman she-beit ha-mikdash [hayah] kayam", with hayah either present or absent or in brackets.
How is it grammatically correct for hayah to be absent?


2, We recite the passage from yoma of Abayei havah mesadeir seider ha-ma'arachah...
but we don't pasken like that: he places dam ha-tamid between hatavat chameish neirot and hatavat shtei neirot, but le-halachah dam ha-tamid is before hatavat chameish neirot.
so why do we say a passage we don't even hold like le-halachah?
schiffschul

Because we do not say it?
According to the proper Minhag Ashkenas the Seder haKorbonos, preceded by birkas haToiroh, is:
Parshas haTomid
Eisehü Mekoimon
Rabbi Yishmoel
melech
QUOTE(schiffschul @ Dec 2 2007, 04:21 PM) *
Because we do not say it?

Fair enough. Then let's say: Why do those who daven according to the nusach of the ashkenaz ArtScroll siddur...
that's not everyone, obviously, but a lot of Jews
existwhere?
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 2 2007, 04:06 PM) *
1.
In the yehi ratzon before the ketoret, it says in many siddurim, 'bizman she-beit ha-mikdash [hayah] kayam", with hayah either present or absent or in brackets.
How is it grammatically correct for hayah to be absent?


2, We recite the passage from yoma of Abayei havah mesadeir seider ha-ma'arachah...
but we don't pasken like that: he places dam ha-tamid between hatavat chameish neirot and hatavat shtei neirot, but le-halachah dam ha-tamid is before hatavat chameish neirot.
so why do we say a passage we don't even hold like le-halachah?

1. No idea of the answer, but have some more questions if you don't mind.
Is "Atah Hu" referred to as a yehi ratzon, and if so, why? It's much less optimistic than the one before tamid.
Is "hayah" avar or over avar and asid?
WHy doesn't it talk about the mishkan?
schiffschul
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 2 2007, 09:49 PM) *
Fair enough. Then let's say: Why do those who daven according to the nusach of the ashkenaz ArtScroll siddur...

'Forgive them; for they know not what they do.'

I must say, that Jesus chap came up with some jolly useful quotes; not only that, but in English, too.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 2 2007, 11:06 PM) *
2, We recite the passage from yoma of Abayei havah mesadeir seider ha-ma'arachah...
but we don't pasken like that: he places dam ha-tamid between hatavat chameish neirot and hatavat shtei neirot, but le-halachah dam ha-tamid is before hatavat chameish neirot.
so why do we say a passage we don't even hold like le-halachah?

The Rebbe [Shlita,Zatzal] explained this once in a sicha. I read it many years ago and forgot what he says. But it had something to do with Abba Shaul poskening like Beis Shammai. If I find it I'll let you know (but it might be faster to ask someone baki in Likeuti Sichos)....
melech
QUOTE(existwhere? @ Dec 2 2007, 05:04 PM) *
1. No idea of the answer, but have some more questions if you don't mind.
Is "Atah Hu" referred to as a yehi ratzon, and if so, why?

My mistake, sorry.
QUOTE
Is "hayah" avar or over avar and asid?


Past tense?

[trivia question from this past shabbos's parshah: what three different verbs appear all in a row, where the first is past tense, the second is presnt, and the third is future?]

QUOTE
WHy doesn't it talk about the mishkan?

Why should it?
Yehudi
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Dec 2 2007, 06:51 PM) *
The Rebbe [Shlita,Zatzal] explained this once in a sicha. I read it many years ago and forgot what he says. But it had something to do with Abba Shaul poskening like Beis Shammai. If I find it I'll let you know (but it might be faster to ask someone baki in Likeuti Sichos)....


your wording may cause some people to have a dilema...
existwhere?
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 2 2007, 08:31 PM) *
Why should it?

Didn't they offer korbanos in the mishkan too?
melech
QUOTE(existwhere? @ Dec 8 2007, 10:17 PM) *
Didn't they offer korbanos in the mishkan too?

So? We pray for the re-building of the beit hamikdash, not the rebuilding of the mishkan. The next place we will offer korbanot will be the beit hamikdash in Yerushalayim, not the mishkan in Nov or Shiloh or anywhere else. Secondly, we have merely paused (mind you, it's been an over nineteen hundred year pause) and we are praying that God presses the <play> button again.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.