From now on, I'm going to use Lauren as my standard for what is considered tzanua. Not that I want to dress like Lauren, but, basically, if Lauren would wear it, it's okay and one could still be considered a righteous, halachically observant woman, whereas if Lauren wouldnt' wear it, it's obviously beyond the pale.

So please help me out here. What would Lauren wear?

Why is this not in the fashion forum?

hmmm yeah you're right. Silly me, at times I forget the forum exists.

Gasp!!!!

Anyway, you know what would be fun? Those dress up dolls like paper ones. Then we could dress "Lauren" in various things here to demonstrate. I only hope Nechama Dina approves.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...=DSC01183-1.jpg

Jean skirt and sneakers.

Good idea, but the problem is you have to start somewhere. Would you have to start with the doll just in her underwear??? Or even without? This would be really scandalous.





The box over her head is a Ramat Bet Shemesh influence?

If you think about it, a box is better than a burka because, with a box, you can't see the shape of the body part being covered.

Wouldn't that make her a Nechamah Dinah lubavitcher if the jean skirt is a floor sweeper?

I didn't specify length. That's up to Lauren. I don't think it's her thing, but she doesn't limit herself. If it looks good, she'll wear it.

Fair enough.

Topless?

I think Lauren would have better shoes. And tell her I want my sweater back.

Hmm, Lauren doesn't dress that much differently than I do. Except maybe I'd choose a different shade of hose. I think Lauren should be my tzniut chavruta as Rabbi Falk suggested.

(it's in the courtyard of the MoMA, by he way)




"the differences among the various camps within the spectrum of orthodoxy are often more nuanced than substantive"

I take it Lauren would never wear a sleeveless gown to a wedding. Take that, artscroll.

LOL



!!!!!!!

And why can't I view the photo without a password? Am I not a part of Lauren's "in" crowd?

Not in this weather.

But seriously (or as seriously as this thread allows) I didn't specify a top because there are just too many top types -- you know, polos, crew necks, sweaters, long sleeves, three-quarter sleeves, below the elbow sleeves, sweatshirts, hoodies, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I don't know Lauren well enough to know what kind of top she'd wear.

Good one!

sorry, ahavati, I deleted the picture. sorry it was before you had a chance to see it.

Any of these.

Okay guys, enough pussyfutting around and being all p.c. I am adopting "What would Lauren wear" as my mantra, so I need a clear definition of her rules.

Does Lauren wear pants?
Does Lauren go mixed swimming, and what does she wear then?
Does Lauren cover her hair? If yes, with what?
Does Lauren wear short sleeves? How short? Would she wear a sleeveless gown to a wedding? To her own wedding?
What does Lauren wear to work? What does she wear to the grocery store? What does she wear in the kitchen on Thursday night while simultaneously baking challah, preparing her daf yomi shiur and responding to calls from her patients?

I know two proverbial Laurens and they both dress in a manner similar to the picture outside the MoMA that was briefly posted in an earlier post. That means no pants, no mixed swimming, they cover their hair [one usually with a sheitel, one usually with a hat], and no short sleeves. As for what they do in the privacy of their homes, I have no idea whatsoever and it would be inappropriate for me to ask. If you want a picture of one such "Lauren", here:
http://www.torahinmotion.org/spkrs_crnr/fa...naZimmerman.htm
although I don't know if she exactly fits the description since although she has completed shas a number of times (I would say a number, but I'm not positive and either it would be flattery if it overestimates or it would be li-gnai if it underestimates), I do not know if she actually delivers a daily daf yomi shiur.

Thank you, melech. I feel fully justified in using Lauren as my tzniut chavruta as per Rabbi Falk, and I will keep Lauren in mind when I go shopping for clothing.

You still shouldn't shop for clothes anywhere that doesn't have a rabbinic haskamah.

In gym class and other appropriate venues.


No mixed swimming, but assuming she is comfortable with her body, she wears regular bathing suits to the pool.


Yes, with whatever she wants.


Yes, she wears t-shirts that just cover her elbow.


No.


Depends on what she does.


Jeans skirt and sneakers.

My main point about Lauren is that she wears whatever she wants within the bounds of halacha and her own personal style. She does not limit her skirt or sleeve lengths by whatever [certain demographic] does or does not do.

She also does not limit her comfort because [certain demographic] says you can only wear shoes in the street or else you look slovenly.

You can also see that I/Lauren am/is a big proponent of denim skirts. Why? Because they are very versatile. Put on a nice top and nice shoes and you look dressed up; put on a polo top and sneakers and you're casual. Plus, the material is very hardy and can stand up to a lot of abuse and doesn't show dirt much if you're cooking or working with kids or gardening or whatever.

Well I never had a chance to view the MoMA picture that you posted, but as for the link you posted above, I think that you and I must have very different definitions for the word modern. I personally think that this picture is practically the polar opposite of modern, IMHO, so it's hard for me to know if you were being serious or sarcastic.

A little of both, I suppose. As always.

But do you think that a female Orthodox pediatrician who delivers a daily daf yomi gemara shiur would dress differently?

I have no idea. Clearly I was answering from a non-frum perspective. That said, I had a female frum doctor last year at a walk-in clinic in Toronto and she didn't look too far off from that picture, but I certainly would never have called her dress modern. My point is that she was the least modern dressed person in the entire clinic, so it's all relative. Someone yeshivish might think she is dressed modern while someone like me thinks something quite different.

That's very silly. Here's a line-up of outfits from Talbots. (In fact, the last skirt's description is cut off, but it's called Modern ponte knit gored skirt.) Perfectly tznius. I guess Talbots isn't modern either.

oy, that's not Lauren, that's Elana.

a question: do you think pencil skirts (like the 3rd one, black, in GF's previous post) are tznius? (i don't know how women walk in them, if the slit doesn't hit...um... yeah)

So? That means Lauren's in good company.


I think they can be. I personally have a bigger problem with tops that are too tight than skirts that are too tight.

I used to wear them a good dozen years ago, when I was skinny. The slits were sewn up and it really depends on the make of the skirt, but generally it wasn't hard to walk in them.

I don't think I was untznius but then a woman can never be objective about her own tznius, can she?

see, in my understanding, there are pencil skirts and then there are plain straight skirts. in GF's pictires, the 3rd one looks like a classic pencil skirt, while the fifth is just straight, even though it's titled "pencil" (i think, can't see clearly). pencil skirt looks very narrowed below the hips - i can't imagine someone walking comfortably even with a slit till the knee, forget about sewn up slits. maybe you are talking about wearing straight skirts?he-he; and now we know why we need all those measurements

nothing; was just funny to see your answers

btw, don't laugh, but who is Lauren again?

I wouldn't know the difference between a pencil skirt and a straight skirt... it's been years since I'm able to wear either one.

I can't remember.

but look at those pics - 3th and 5th. see the difference?

No, honestly I don't. They're both called pencil skirts.

i know they are, but their silhouettes/shapes are different. the first one - it narrows majorily below the hips, while the send one - it's just straight, not flary but not more narrow either

yeah, maybe.

It's been a very long time since I was skinny enough to wear either style.

Talbots is known for their classic, timeless styling. I wouldn't call them "modern."

Fine, whatever. I guess the only way to be modern is to wear low-rise jeans so your thong and tramp stamp are showing.

The Talbots outfits you posted are indeed all tzniut as well as not modern. I agree with notreallyhere that Talbots is known for classic, timeless clothing that can be worn from one season to the next. While they may carry the odd modern piece of clothing, they have built their reputation on classic clothing.

I sure hope that isn't true. I certainly don't wear low-rise jeans (or have a tramp stamp) but do wear clothing that would not be considered tzniut in terms of cut, fit or length, although it is considered quiet professional by societal standards and wouldn't raise an eyebrow at your typical corporate office or restaurant. My only point was that what passes for modern on this thread does not pass for modern in the population at large. I'm sure that Lauren dresses more modern than people to the right of her though, so it's all relative, I just wouldn't personally use the word modern to define her mode of dress.

tramp stamp.

I just learned a new colloquialism.

Yeah, I was kind of wondering how many people would get that.

I just don't like the implication that all non-O women have one or dress like sl*** [which is what I think she was implying], as that's very far from the truth.

And I don't like the implication that tzniut = unmodern.

Maybe some people have a frummy look, but when I walk down the street in my tznius clothing plenty of people do not peg me as frum.

Off topic a bit, but I remember a study coming out a few years ago that correlated piercings with promiscuity and anti-social behaviors. As with tramp stamps, I think the prevalence and increased acceptability of both tatoos and piercings greatly reduce any correlation.

Still...that's much less offensive than what you implied and I was just stating how society defines the term modern today in terms of clothing. The outfits you posted are very far from modern although they are attractive, so I was in no way implying that the outfits were frumpy or unattractive, they are just not modern by societal standards.

Whether or not people peg you as someone who is frum [or instead think that you chose that particular day to wear a long skirt and top], most secular people would still not consider the type of outfits that you posted as modern, even if they were very attractive and classic. If you think this is just my opinion, you'd be wrong. If you asked 100 random women walking on the street in Manhattan if they thought those outfits you posted were modern, you'd see what I mean.