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melech
What compelled Yoseph to relate his dream about his brothers to his brothers? In retrospect, did he act correctly? Sure, in the end, the Aibishter made sure that everything worked out, and his galut to Mitzrayim was the beginning of that Redemption, but in general, are we supposed to tell people when we dream about them?
doodlehead
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 07:42 AM) *
What compelled Yoseph to relate his dream about his brothers to his brothers? In retrospect, did he act correctly? Sure, in the end, the Aibishter made sure that everything worked out, and his galut to Mitzrayim was the beginning of that Redemption, but in general, are we supposed to tell people when we dream about them?

Yosef knew what his dreams meant, so he told them to his brothers in order to enable the explanation of the dreams to come about.

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mendelbaum666
according to the Chasam Sofer, he related the dreams to his brothers to get their interpretation of them as he knew what they ment but as he was a nogiah bedavar in them, he was upset at having the gaivah to think that he would rule over his brothers, and in his tzidkus, he is known as Yosef Hatzadik, he wanted his brother's opinion on how to interprate the dreams
melech
QUOTE(mendelbaum666 @ Dec 9 2007, 07:56 AM) *
according to the Chasam Sofer, he related the dreams to his brothers to get their interpretation of them as he knew what they ment but as he was a nogiah bedavar in them, he was upset at having the gaivah to think that he would rule over his brothers, and in his tzidkus, he is known as Yosef Hatzadik, he wanted his brother's opinion on how to interprate the dreams

If he knew what they meant, then all the more so he should have had the foresight not to provoke his brothers by asking for their interpretation, no? Why couldn't he have gone to someone at Yeshivat Eiver for an interpretation? Wasn't telling his brothers the dream putting them in a nisayon?
doodlehead
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 08:37 AM) *
If he knew what they meant, then all the more so he should have had the foresight not to provoke his brothers by asking for their interpretation, no? Why couldn't he have gone to someone at Yeshivat Eiver for an interpretation? Wasn't telling his brothers the dream putting them in a nisayon?

Did you see my post?

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melech
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Dec 9 2007, 08:43 AM) *
Did you see my post?

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Yes. I understand that Yoseph wanted his dream to come about. However, by doing so, he placed his brothers in a situation that resulted in them doing something which they later regreted and for which they needed to ask forgiveness.
doodlehead
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 08:49 AM) *
Yes. I understand that Yoseph wanted his dream to come about. However, by doing so, he placed his brothers in a situation that resulted in them doing something which they later regreted and for which they needed to ask forgiveness.

And what was yosefs answer to his brothers when they asked for forgiveness?

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existwhere?
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 07:42 AM) *
What compelled Yoseph to relate his dream about his brothers to his brothers? In retrospect, did he act correctly? Sure, in the end, the Aibishter made sure that everything worked out, and his galut to Mitzrayim was the beginning of that Redemption, but in general, are we supposed to tell people when we dream about them?

Have you read R' Moshe Eisemann's books?
melech
QUOTE(existwhere? @ Dec 9 2007, 09:33 AM) *
Have you read R' Moshe Eisemann's books?

No, I have not.

I did, however, just Google him. Fascinating.
existwhere?
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 09:45 AM) *
No, I have not.

You would greatly enjoy his books.
kishiniev
his books
mendelbaum666
the Chasam Sofer, I beleive, adds that if you look by the 2 dreams, the first one after Yosef told his brothers about it, the pasuk says, they hated him, meaning they believed Yosef was telling them this dream to get them to go to Yaakov and complain to Yaakov like Yosaif complained about them. After the second dream, Yosef tells both his brothers and Yaakov, the pasuk says that the brothers were jealous and Yaakov it says waited for the matter.
Since the brothers saw that in every dream that is true there is is untruth to it, since his mother was dead, she could not bow down, so therefore the rest of the dream was true, so they became jealous that Yosiaf was going to be Zoche to Malchus and not them, Rashi says that Yaakov was going to wait for the dream to come true because he saw that it was emes.

now the real question is why Yaakov sent Yosaif alone after the shvatim if he saw that they were jealous at the very least with Yosaif.
Xi
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 08:49 AM) *
Yes. I understand that Yoseph wanted his dream to come about. However, by doing so, he placed his brothers in a situation that resulted in them doing something which they later regreted and for which they needed to ask forgiveness.

Is one allowed to cause someone else to sin for the 'greater good of humanity'?
Yehudi
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 07:42 AM) *
What compelled Yoseph to relate his dream about his brothers to his brothers? In retrospect, did he act correctly? Sure, in the end, the Aibishter made sure that everything worked out, and his galut to Mitzrayim was the beginning of that Redemption, but in general, are we supposed to tell people when we dream about them?


Many commentaries discuss this question...as for "if we are suppose to relate to people when you dream about them" I don't know, but as the Abarabanel writes "it the custom of people who 'love' each other to tell over their dreams to one another" (the abarbanel goes on at length about the brothers hate for him and in light of that what compelled yosef to relate his dream, and about the two dreams in general)


QUOTE(Xi @ Dec 9 2007, 11:55 AM) *
Is one allowed to cause someone else to sin for the 'greater good of humanity'?


Why was the second Temple destoryed ?
Xi
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Dec 9 2007, 01:22 PM) *
Why was the second Temple destoryed?

I'm not following.
Yehudi

QUOTE(Talmud Gitin 56a Soncino edition )
He went and said to the Emperor, The Jews are rebelling against you. He said, How can I tell? He said to him: Send them an offering and see whether they will offer it [on the altar]. So he sent with him a fine calf. While on the way he made a blemish on its upper lip, or as some say on the white of its eye, in a place where we [Jews] count it a blemish but they do not. The Rabbis were inclined to offer it in order not to offend the Government. Said R. Zechariah b. Abkulas to them: People will say that blemished animals are offered on the altar. They then proposed to kill Bar Kamza so that he should not go and inform against them, but R. Zechariah b. Abkulas said to them, Is one who makes a blemish on consecrated animals to be put to death? R. Johanan thereupon remarked: Through the scrupulousness of R. Zechariah b. Abkulas our House has been destroyed, our Temple burnt and we ourselves exiled from our land.
Xi
[quote]

Oh, THAT.
What are the dissenting opinions (if any)?
(Because I'm lazy and don't want to play my own Devil's Advocate.)
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE(Xi @ Dec 9 2007, 10:09 PM) *
Oh, THAT.
What are the dissenting opinions (if any)?
(Because I'm lazy and don't want to play my own Devil's Advocate.)

There was also something about a poor party planner, and some stolen chickens...
Xi
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Dec 9 2007, 03:11 PM) *
There was also something about a poor party planner, and some stolen chickens...

The first one at least seems to further Yehudi's point (if stepping on tradition is sinning).
Yehudi
QUOTE(Xi @ Dec 9 2007, 03:09 PM) *
Oh, THAT.
What are the dissenting opinions (if any)?
(Because I'm lazy and don't want to play my own Devil's Advocate.)


You mean as to the meaning of that Gemora?

Well Rashi explains the problem to be, that they did not kill him.

The Maharsha explains that it is for certain that in this instance they were permitted to bring it as a sacrifice.

The Ben Yehoyoda explains, but first FTR what is translated above as "scrupulousness " is the word 'anvasnuso" which can be "humbleness". anyhow the Ben yehoyda explains that Rabbi Zechariah was a Kohen who was in the Temple at that time, the other Kohanim asked him if they should sacrifice the animal in order to not offend the government, Rabbi Zacharyah replied that he will not\cannot make the decision and the question should be brought before the sanhedrin [OT I thought the sanhedrin had skipped town by then?] as he left to go to the sanhedrin he gave the animal to hold in the meantime to the messenger who had brought it to begin with, instead of waiting the messenger returned with the animal to the king, and its all history from there.

Of course, the question is always what exactly is meant by "'greater good of humanity".


artscroll
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 09:45 AM) *
I did, however, just Google him. Fascinating.

Did you walk away perplexed?
melech
QUOTE(artscroll @ Dec 10 2007, 10:07 AM) *
Did you walk away perplexed?

smile.gif
Moshi
ohmy.gif
pleats
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 9 2007, 07:42 AM) *
What compelled Yoseph to relate his dream about his brothers to his brothers? In retrospect, did he act correctly? Sure, in the end, the Aibishter made sure that everything worked out, and his galut to Mitzrayim was the beginning of that Redemption, but in general, are we supposed to tell people when we dream about them?

Were the dreams considered nevuah?
If so, isn't one not allowed to keep nevuah to himself?

QUOTE(mendelbaum666 @ Dec 9 2007, 10:43 AM) *
now the real question is why Yaakov sent Yosaif alone after the shvatim if he saw that they were jealous at the very least with Yosaif.

The Malbim says that Yaakov didn't have bechira re:sending him.
melech
QUOTE(pleats @ Dec 10 2007, 12:29 PM) *
Were the dreams considered nevuah?

aren't all dreams, to an extent?
Yehudi
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 10 2007, 12:30 PM) *
aren't all dreams, to an extent?


no.
melech
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Dec 10 2007, 01:11 PM) *
no.

some?
any?
Yehudi
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 10 2007, 01:11 PM) *
some?
any?


Some are and some aren't. which ones depends on who you ask, like for example the maharasha in berochos says it depends on which part of the night your dream was in.
pleats
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 10 2007, 12:30 PM) *
aren't all dreams, to an extent?

Batel b'shishim? wink.gif
melech
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Dec 10 2007, 01:15 PM) *
Some are and some aren't. which ones depends on who you ask, like for example the maharasha in berochos says it depends on which part of the night your dream was in.

Let's say it was during REM sleep.
Yehudi
QUOTE(pleats @ Dec 10 2007, 01:16 PM) *
Batel b'shishim? wink.gif


That by the was is the [a] reason for the 'Ribono shel olam' about bad dreams, taht people have the custom to say while the Kohanim are doing 'nisas kapayim'.

QUOTE(melech @ Dec 10 2007, 01:17 PM) *
Let's say it was during REM sleep.


Do you mean at the end of the night? for if I am not mistaken REM sleep can be anytime during the night, anyhow see the Maharsha in berchos 3a d"h visha.
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