On a recent trip to eretz yisrael, something happened repeatedly that really really upset me. Every day I would daven shacharis and mincha at the kosel, so I'd be there at least twice a day. There were hundreds of tours coming at all hours of the day, and it was hard to stand in one place without being jostled around. That didn't bother me.

What bothered me about these tourists (all of them Christian Europeans/Asians) was their conduct at the Kosel. Many of them kneeled with clasped hands, all of them crossed themselves repeatedly, and they all prayed aloud, invoking the name of jesus christ and the virgin mary, to the point where I could barely hear myself pray.

Now, I find it nice that people of all cultures and religions believe in the holiness of our Kosel, but I really hate it that there aren't any rules about how tourists should conduct themselves. The only rules posted are about covering one's shoulders, but shouldn't there be rules (either posted, or warned by the Tour Leader) about how to act and not act at a holy site? About not offending the other worshippers?

I really feel that if the situation were reversed, and Jews believed in praying at Christian or Muslim sites, we would have no problem respecting their wishes. So why can't the Christian (and all other religious) tourists be told?

mosheshmeal
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Belle-

Was there some kind of Christian convention in town? I've been to the kotel on numerous occasions in the past, but never saw anything like this. Yes, it is disrespectful of them.

What mode of worship should non-Jewish believers in God use to pray outside of that which they know? Should they read from a siddur?

Is that how you view Tisha B'av?




What's wrong with all tourists being asked to keep their prayers limited to whispers, and not crossing themselves?

Like I said, if the situation were reversed, can you see a Jewish guy in St. Peters mumbling Az Yashir out loud? Jewish men pray out loud at home, but I'm sure they would have no problem if they were told to keep it down.

Nothing, but I'm trying first to see what's wrong with them praying aloud.



Well, they see Jews praying aloud. It's not like silent worship is the name of the game at the kotel.

There's nothing wrong with praying out loud, if it's not offensive to the majority of the worshippers. There were dozens of these tourists praying VERY loud in Polish and other such languages, without mentioning jesus and such. Other than being too noisy for my personal liking, there's nothing wrong with it. Although, I think we can agree that in the women's section, it IS rare to find women praying in a loud voice.

And yes, they see Jews praying aloud (again, not in the women's section) but if they're going to be loud, don't bring up names that are offensive to others.

No one is having issues with the Christians being there. I just don't see why they can't be instructed that it's a Jewish holy site, and please respect it by not doing anything that bothers the Jews. It's simple etiquette.

And again, for comparison, if a Muslim prayed aloud to Mohammed the prophet in a church, you can bet that the Christian worshippers would be offended. Would they be wrong in posting rules that included not mentioning foreign deities/saviors/saints?

Then it isn't loud praying that bothers you, but kneeling and crossing and mentioning Jesus. As I said earlier, what modes of prayer should they pray but the one which they know how to do? How does a Christian pray without mentioning Jesus?

As for no one having issues with Christians being there, you'd be surprised. There is always someone more offended than you.

As for what worshipers should do at other holy site, my personal opinion is that the world will be a better place when religious people will stop looking to be offended by other people who only want to pray to God.

That said, if such rules were posted then the worshipers would be wrong to violate them.

I think that Muslims are only supposed to pray to Allah, and not to Mohammed.

The reason the kosel is inclusive is because it represents the same God to different religions. It's just that the majority of Christians have been brainwashed taught that they must go through Jesus to reach God.

Is that how you view the Kosel?

mosheshmeal
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QFT

What would happen if I went to a reform temple and started praying to the flying spaghetti monster?

FTW!! Hail Eris. (Is that a Fnord I see?)

Whoops, I forgot I'm dealing with a williamsburger! Tzionim!

My bad.

Firstly, yes, it's not the loudness that bothers me. (Although it's rude). It's the kneeling, crossing and Jesusing. And although I understand your point about it being their way of praying, I'm sure that if they were requested not to do the above, but to pray silently, in their heads, without gestures - I'm sure they'd agree that G-d (and anyone else they're praying to) listens to that as well. We're not dealing with pagans who need the rituals and that's their only form of prayer. Christians pray, and the gestures just go along with it.

If a Jew were asked not to 'shuckel' at a grave site or holy site, but to pray quietly in place, would he not be able to pray, or concentrate? I'm sure he'd manage.

Regarding your second comment, I agree about the world being better without everyone looking at others. But since we're not at that point yet, here's my two cents worth of trying to limit the offension. (Is that a word?)

What? A spagnostic?!
He (or She, as may be the case) shall smite you mightily with His Noodly Appendage...

Fascinating...

I really need to dust off my Robert Anton-Wilson books.