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melech
Can Outreachers invite a heretic for a YT meal?
doodlehead
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 31 2007, 07:43 AM) *
Can Outreachers invite a heretic for a YT meal?

Yes. You arent cooking specifically for a non jew.

9
melech
QUOTE(doodlehead @ Dec 31 2007, 10:50 AM) *
Yes. You arent cooking specifically for a non jew.

9

a heretic doesn't have a din as if a nonJew with respect to this halachah of not inviting a nonJew to a YT meal?
doodlehead
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 31 2007, 10:55 AM) *
a heretic doesn't have a din as if a nonJew with respect to this halachah of not inviting a nonJew to a YT meal?

I highly doubt it.

9
Yehudi
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 31 2007, 07:43 AM) *
Can Outreachers invite a heretic for a YT meal?


See the Mishnah berura sk 2 IOW I guess it depends on what you mean by "heretic", but yes there is a way:)
melech
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Dec 31 2007, 01:17 PM) *
See the Mishnah berura sk 2 IOW I guess it depends on what you mean by "heretic", but yes there is a way:)

It seems from that MB that indeed "If a Jew is a confirmed sinner as regards idol sorship or as regards public profanation of the shabbos, he has the ruling of a non-Jew and one may not cook for him on Yom Tov".
So how, pray tell, do the Outreachers get around that one?
Or do you assume regarding the secular "there are authorities who permit it because they reason that they merely act mistakenly, following the practice of their ancestors"? Which is swell, but my question was regarding a heretic, not just stam an ignorant secular person.
Yehudi
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 31 2007, 02:02 PM) *
It seems from that MB that indeed "If a Jew is a confirmed sinner as regards idol sorship or as regards public profanation of the shabbos, he has the ruling of a non-Jew and one may not cook for him on Yom Tov".
So how, pray tell, do the Outreachers get around that one?
Or do you assume regarding the secular "there are authorities who permit it because they reason that they merely act mistakenly, following the practice of their ancestors"? Which is swell, but my question was regarding a heretic, not just stam an ignorant secular person.


About a confirmed heretic, is a lot more problematic (and may very well not be permitted), however do you have the sefer Piskei Teshuvos (on the MB), if you do, see what he says and the various sources he cites regarding that MB, if you don't tell me and I will try and scan it in for you.
melech
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Dec 31 2007, 02:16 PM) *
About a confirmed heretic, is a lot more problematic (and may very well not be permitted), however do you have the sefer Piskei Teshuvos (on the MB), if you do, see what he says and the various sources he cites regarding that MB, if you don't tell me and I will try and scan it in for you.

Thanks, I have it. Cool how they squirm out of that one, and just say it's now ok because of "darchei shalom" [footnote 7]. Isn't that convenient.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE(melech @ Dec 31 2007, 09:02 PM) *
It seems from that MB that indeed "If a Jew is a confirmed sinner as regards idol sorship or as regards public profanation of the shabbos, he has the ruling of a non-Jew and one may not cook for him on Yom Tov".
So how, pray tell, do the Outreachers get around that one?

As you well know there are several ways around this without having to resort to apologetics. Including preparing the food before YT, or making more than you need in any event in case unexpected guests come....
melech
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Dec 31 2007, 03:09 PM) *
As you well know there are several ways around this without having to resort to apologetics. Including preparing the food before YT, or making more than you need in any event in case unexpected guests come....

How does preparing food before YT help??? If that were the case, then the halachah would be, you can't invite nonJewish [or heretical Jewish] guests unless you cook all the food before YT. But that's not the halachah. The halachah is that you can't invite nonJewish [or heretical Jewish] guests at all regardless.
Seems to me, the guests we are inviting are the twins, Picking and Choosing: nobody is that comfortable with the inconvenient halachah, so, as is the case where there's a rabbinic will, there's an halachic way.
Maybe we should also step on our clothes in order to wear fresh ones during the nine days.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE(melech @ Jan 1 2008, 12:22 AM) *
How does preparing food before YT help??? If that were the case, then the halachah would be, you can't invite nonJewish [or heretical Jewish] guests unless you cook all the food before YT. But that's not the halachah. The halachah is that you can't invite nonJewish [or heretical Jewish] guests at all regardless.

But WHY can't you invite them? Because it is assur to cook for them. So it doesn't seem so far fetched to me that someone would be matir inviting them if the issur is avoided.
Big poskim have come up with these solutions, not some feel good new age politically correct Open Orthodox people with an agenda.

Do you also decry the fact that people perform Chalitza instead of Yibum, sell their chometz, pruzbol, heter iska, count non religious Jews in a minyan, don't throw idolaters in pits??

melech
QUOTE(Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Dec 31 2007, 06:50 PM) *
But WHY can't you invite them? Because it is assur to cook for them. So it doesn't seem so far fetched to me that someone would be matir inviting them if the issur is avoided.
Big poskim have come up with these solutions, not some feel good new age politically correct Open Orthodox people with an agenda.

Do you also decry the fact that people perform Chalitza instead of Yibum, sell their chometz, pruzbol, heter iska, count non religious Jews in a minyan, don't throw idolaters in pits??

chalitza, pruzbol, heter iska - those are all chazaldik, so I have no problem with them. My point is to decry a kuntz to get around an issur de-rabbanan. As for selling chametz, I have had what to say about that [when the agenda suited me] as an example of halachah changing [not selling chametz per se, but specifically keeping it in the house, which is an Acharonic innovation from around the time of the Ba'ch because of the liquor industry]. And at least no throwing idolators in pits is sourced in Rishonim.
I suppose counting non-religious Jews in a minyan is the best example.

There are solutions and there are solutions. Innovating a "darchei shalom" excuse out of thin air is, to all appearances, a kuntz, to get out of an issur de-rabbanan. So is cooking before YT - that was never a solution among Rishonim so it would appear the issur would stand even if one were to cook before YT.

Look, I don't really have a problem with trying to make things a little easier given the realities today of, for example, secular relatives, which we all have. But let's call a spade a spade and admit it's a kuntz to get around an issur de-rabbanan.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
QUOTE(melech @ Jan 1 2008, 02:18 AM) *
Look, I don't really have a problem with trying to make things a little easier given the realities today of, for example, secular relatives, which we all have. But let's call a spade a spade and admit it's a kuntz to get around an issur de-rabbanan.

The question is WHY? It is not really for personal convenience. The only two situations that it really happens is 1. Secular relatives as you said and 2. Kiruv. And even the former can be passed off as Kiruv in a manner of speaking.

I am much less bothered when people look for "kuntzim" to enable them to perform chesed and mitzvos, than when they want to do it because they are lazy or it is inconvenient. Like I said if this were some pluralistic PC agenda driven issue I would be singing a different tune.
sle123
Just out of curiousity (and pardon the ignorance please),
why would a religious Jew want to invite a heretic non-Jew over for yom tov?
Xi
QUOTE(sle123 @ Dec 31 2007, 07:33 PM) *
Just out of curiousity (and pardon the ignorance please),
why would a religious Jew want to invite a heretic non-Jew over for yom tov?

A relative maybe?
sle123
QUOTE(Xi @ Dec 31 2007, 07:37 PM) *
A relative maybe?

So why davka during yom tov?
Xi
QUOTE(sle123 @ Dec 31 2007, 07:38 PM) *
So why davka during yom tov?

Who said davka?
sle123
QUOTE(Xi @ Dec 31 2007, 07:47 PM) *
Who said davka?

The OP.
Xi
QUOTE(sle123 @ Dec 31 2007, 07:48 PM) *
The OP.

They happen to be in town then.
Yehudi
QUOTE(sle123 @ Dec 31 2007, 07:33 PM) *
Just out of curiousity (and pardon the ignorance please),
why would a religious Jew want to invite a heretic non-Jew over for yom tov?


Not a "heretic non-jew", but rather a jew who is a heretic, the question was if they have the same halacha as a non-jew in this respect.
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