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Yehudi
Chapter 2

Do you set aside a certain time every once in a while to do some introspection and see where you are holding? if yes how often? do you do it on Thursday nights (as it says in some place IIRC)?
existwhere?
I wish I always remembered to do it twice a day, as it says in the Igeres HaRamban, in the morning and the evening.
Moshi
[Note: Can we not move forward so fast through the chapters? It is more important to discuss them thoroughly. IMHO.]

I very much agree with what he's saying here, in terms of most of the things I do wrong or fail to do right is because I get too busy with matters that are not important. The mind is restless and wants to be occupied, and it is not easy to keep it steady, particularly in a world of constant stimulation.... as soon as we stop to resolve to do something, a chorus of voices in our heads rise up to protest -- or to distract.

I think that there are personality types that have an easier time keeping their minds still. For the rest of us, you kind of have to compromise.
Yehudi
QUOTE(Moshi @ Jan 1 2008, 10:33 PM) *
[Note: Can we not move forward so fast through the chapters? It is more important to discuss them thoroughly. IMHO.]


So what do you suggest?

QUOTE
I very much agree with what he's saying here, in terms of most of the things I do wrong or fail to do right is because I get too busy with matters that are not important. The mind is restless and wants to be occupied, and it is not easy to keep it steady, particularly in a world of constant stimulation.... as soon as we stop to resolve to do something, a chorus of voices in our heads rise up to protest -- or to distract.

I think that there are personality types that have an easier time keeping their minds still. For the rest of us, you kind of have to compromise.


true.
Moshi
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Jan 2 2008, 12:12 AM) *
So what do you suggest?


i suggest a slightly more in-depth discussion of each chapter before moving on. you ask a good question here, but what do we take away from this thread? or from this chapter? so far it is me, you, and existwhere? that are participating, over time perhaps others will join, but it seems that it is better to encourage more thoughtful and introspective answers and thoughts on each chapter -- before moving on to the next... i.e. learning, rather than reading... just a suggestion.
Yehudi
QUOTE(Moshi @ Jan 2 2008, 12:21 AM) *
i suggest a slightly more in-depth discussion of each chapter before moving on. you ask a good question here, but what do we take away from this thread? or from this chapter? so far it is me, you, and existwhere? that are participating, over time perhaps others will join, but it seems that it is better to encourage more thoughtful and introspective answers and thoughts on each chapter -- before moving on to the next... i.e. learning, rather than reading... just a suggestion.


ok, but on the other hand, in theory you should be able to go on and on, about even a single chapter so there has to be some "limit" or official pace, but yes I see what you say. so would you say a chapter every two days? I am open for suggestion (and as I said I think it better if its not "me").

perhaps you should try and start some threads (I mean this seriously) I am by nature not one to discuss Introspection out loud usually , so that might be my problem.
Nooch
QUOTE
Jeremiah complains about the evil of the men of his generation, about their being affected with this affliction, the blinding of their eyes to their actions, their failure to analyze them in order to determine whether they should be engaged in or abandoned. He says about these men (Jeremiah 8:6), "No one regrets his wrongdoing, saying... They all turn away in their course as a horse rushing headlong into battle." He alludes here to their running on the impetus of their habits and their ways without leaving themselves time to evaluate their actions and ways,, and, as a result, falling into evil without noticing it. In reality, this is one of the clever devices of the evil inclination - to mount pressure unrelentingly against the hearts of men so as to leave them no leisure to consider and observe the type of life they are leading. For it realizes that if they were to devote even a slight degree of attention to their ways, there is no question but that they would immediately begin to repent of their deeds and that regret would wax in them until they would leave oft sinning altogether. It is this consideration which underlay the counsel of the wicked Pharaoh in his statement (Exodus 5:9), "Intensify the men's labors..." His intention was not merely to deprive them of all leisure so that they would not come to oppose him or plot against him, but he strove to strip their hearts of all thought by means of the enduring, interminable nature of their labor.
This is precisely the device that the evil inclination employs against man; for it is a warrior and well versed in deception. One cannot escape it without great wisdom and a broad outlook. As we are exhorted by the Prophet (Haggai 1:7), "Give heed to your ways." And as Solomon in his wisdom said (Proverbs 6:4), "Give neither sleep to your eyes nor slumber to your eyelids. Rescue yourself as a deer from the hand..." And as our Sages of blessed memory said (Sotah 5b), "All who deliberate upon their paths in this world will be worthy to witness the salvation wrought by the Holy One Blessed be He." Clearly even if one superintends himself, it is not within his power to save himself without the help of the Holy One Blessed be He. For the evil inclination is extremely tenacious, as Scripture states (Psalms 37:32), "The wicked one looks to the righteous and seeks to kill him; God will not leave him..." If a man looks to himself, the Holy One Blessed be He helps him, and he is saved from the evil inclination. But if he gives no heed to himself, the Holy One Blessed be He will certainly not superintend him; for if he does not pity himself, who should pity him? This is as our Sages of blessed memory have said (Berachoth 33a), "It is forbidden to pity anyone who has no understanding," and (Avoth 1:14), "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?"

I once read a vort from the Bais HaLevi on a pasuk we read a few weeks ago in Parshas Vayishlach 32:30.There the pasuk describes Yaakov Avinu after wrestling with the angel of Eisav (yetzer horah) asks him his name.In a peculiar response he replies "Why do you ask my name?" The Bais HaLevi asks that when the malach asked Yaakov his name,he was given a legitimate reply. Why wasn't one from him just as warranted?
The Bais HaLevi explains that the Saar shel Eisav is also known as the Yetzer HoRah,and he was giving him an answer! We know that one's name is their essence. The essence of the Yetzer HoRah is "why ask me my name". If you ask what I'm really all about,you will come to realize my true nature is one of evil and sin. But the way the Yetzer HoRah is successful is that he obfuscates and clouds the issues. Often dressing them up as mitzvot and righteous deeds.When in reality they are only pitfalls and stumbling blocks.This is why it is imperative to always calculate and measure one's actions and deeds.Ask what is truly behind this drive of mine.
Moshi
QUOTE(Yehudi @ Jan 2 2008, 12:33 AM) *
ok, but on the other hand, in theory you should be able to go on and on, about even a single chapter so there has to be some "limit" or official pace, but yes I see what you say. so would you say a chapter every two days? I am open for suggestion (and as I said I think it better if its not "me").


Maybe every 2-3 days, though perhaps if there is an active on-topic discussion going on, it could be less often than that. And if there is no discussion, perhaps we all should try to facilitate it.

QUOTE
perhaps you should try and start some threads (I mean this seriously) I am by nature not one to discuss Introspection out loud usually , so that might be my problem.


I encourage you to be more introspective in your posts, this is a mostly anonymous board, and though maybe we're not ready to share our most precious secrets with each other, I think sharing of some basic perceptions of what we're learning, and how it relates to real life, is important. After all, this is a practical mussar work, not History of Ancient Egypt.
Ahavati
QUOTE
"Give heed to your ways." And as Solomon in his wisdom said (Proverbs 6:4), "Give neither sleep to your eyes nor slumber to your eyelids. Rescue yourself as a deer from the hand..." And as our Sages of blessed memory said (Sotah 5b), "All who deliberate upon their paths in this world will be worthy to witness the salvation wrought by the Holy One Blessed be He." Clearly even if one superintends himself, it is not within his power to save himself without the help of the Holy One Blessed be He. For the evil inclination is extremely tenacious, as Scripture states (Psalms 37:32), "The wicked one looks to the righteous and seeks to kill him; God will not leave him..." If a man looks to himself, the Holy One Blessed be He helps him, and he is saved from the evil inclination. But if he gives no heed to himself, the Holy One Blessed be He will certainly not superintend him; for if he does not pity himself, who should pity him? This is as our Sages of blessed memory have said (Berachoth 33a), "It is forbidden to pity anyone who has no understanding," and (Avoth 1:14), "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?"


and all the people said, amen
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