Last night I looked at all 60 pictures on onlysimchas of the latest Nefesh B'Nefesh flight. One picture after the next showed smiling, happy, well-dressed Americans (or foreigners of some variety)...and I'm trying to understand what these people are going to do in Israel. Most of them did not look like hippy, soulful people who can live in a hovel as long as they're breathing the holy air of Eretz Yisrael. They looked like regular, middle-class Americans. How do they maintain their lifestyle in a country with no money? How do they look so happy about it? [And why don't any of them look exhausted after a 100 hour flight???]

[Caveat #1: I know my comments are based on looks alone.]
[Caveat #2: I'm not looking for a three-page essay on the benefits of making aliyah. I just want a short little understanding of what people are thinking.]

Someone with actual knowledge of this will have a better answer, but logically, I would assume that you don't move to Israel without 1- savings; 2- an apartment lined up; 3- a job lined up.

Don't always assume Actually, never assume.

Things work out (even if it wasn't what you bargained for); and if you're the type that thrives on spontaneity..who wouldn't have a smile?

I would also assume that people that moved to Israel without a plan probably are the ones that end up becoming yordim real fast.

Actually, last year I decided to go to Israel and bought a ticket the next day. Packed for a year and took off. Granted I was single and turns out a friend's sister had an extra apartment in a central neighborhood I could use. I played it by ear thereafter, and yes, it all worked out.
I've nothing against structure and schedule, hey they're great. But if you want to get up one day and have a bare-bones plan; why the heck not?

There's moving and there's making aliyah. I would assume that a lot of the people who just make it work are the ones who didn't plan to stay permanently.

Why do you assume that everyone who makes aliyah is planning on living in a hovel? The "no money" in Israel is quite exaggerated - the country is certainly poorer than the USA, but I have plenty of relatives and friends there, some of whom are fairly recent olim, and all of them are living middle class lifestyles roughly comparable to the average NY family. They may have 1 car or no car (although in Manhattan that's common anyways) or splurge less on vacations, but they live in normal houses, eat normal food, have the same entertainment options that I do, etc. Remember that there's no need (for DL at least, I don't know what the Chareidim do) to pay yeshiva tuition since mamlachti and mamlachti torani schools are free. That's a huge financial difference right there - for a family with four kids, that could easily be a difference of 40,000 to 50,000 US dollars after taxes.

Most American olim are pretty well educated. I only know my field, but take a look at this salary survey for computer jobs in Israel in 2007. According to the survey, the average salary for a programmer with 3 years experience is 17,500 shekel a month, which is approximately $52,500 a year, plus benefits (50% receive a company car) and minus taxes. Some people are making less than that of course, but some are also making more, and when you factor in the lack of tuition bills that's not too much worse than the NY guy with the same position making $90,000 to $100,000. (And that's somewhat high for NY for only 3 years experience; $75,000 wouldn't be unheard of either). Those numbers match my experience with what jobs I've looked into in both countries were paying.

Edit: I checked salary.com, and the average in NYC for that job is $91,878, with the 25th percentile at $82,215 and the 75th percentile at $102,203, so my numbers seem more or less correct.

Again, this is one survey, and for computer science only, but your average American oleh isn't expecting to drive a cab. Most of them have the skills and degrees to get jobs that pay quite enough for a middle class lifestyle. Among my friends who've made aliyah, a number are working in the financial industry for example. A good deal of them are working as teachers, which is much harder to break even on in Israel, but those tend to be the ones who are content with less, and anyways it's not like teachers in NY have an easy time paying their bills either. I don't know anyone who made aliyah whose lifestyle changed all that significantly - most of them have less money in Israel, but they are still roughly in the same financial categories that they were pre-aliyah.

A lot of people move when they are young without significant savings. And plenty of people go without an apartment or a job. You can live in an absorption center for a little while until you find an apartment, and if you are planning on doing an ulpan you may not be looking to start a job for months anyways. Depending on age, guys may have to also do some IDF training or service, which also means practically you have time to worry about a job since you can't immediately start work anyways. The things you listed make life easier, but plenty of people are successful without them.

Yes, but you and bigtoe are talking about younger single people. I interpreted the OP to be referring to older, married people, most likely with children. When you're young and single you can bum around anywhere the world almost indefinitely without a plan.

I agree that it is financially difficult for someone with kids older than around 5 and younger than college age to make aliyah. (Aside from the other issues, like how unfair it is to the kids). The people who seem to have the easiest time are the younger set, whether single or married with no kids or very young kids, and older folks whose kids are already out of the house. In the middle it's really hard. However, if you do have a plan, the salary numbers I quoted above are still applicable.

I was totally not disputing that.

Not in my experience. Lots of thodse actually stay much longer than those that plan.

Okay. It's certainly possible to survive in Israel.
If one happens to be in a high-paying field like computers or finances, you will be making a middle-class income in Israel. Still a lower income than you would be earning in the U.S. (and some things are more expensive in Israel), but you will be living more or less a middle class lifestyle.

However, a teacher in Israel, or a social worker for that matter, will not be living a middle class lifestyle. Many teachers earn less than $1000 a month, or 4000 NIS a month (yes, that is before taxes). That's why they are always striking. That is barely a livable wage for a single person, let alone someone who needs to support a family or contribute to a family's income.
It simply cannot be compared to a teacher's salary in New York, which usually starts at $45,000, I believe, certainly livable, to say the least.

So I will say that Israel is not a third world country, but it's not quite a first world country either. Unless you happen to be in computers or finances, you won't be earning what seems like a comfortable middle class income to an American. You will more be living a lower-middle class existence, working-class existence, or perhaps even feel like the "working poor."
You'll have enough to eat, you'll pay your rent, but not much else.

This question was asked and answered in Parshas Shlach. And the conditions were much worse back then. Ayan Sham....

Is it so unbelievable that some people are willing to take a big risk for their ideology and to do what they believe? That they might even be willing to sacrifice a little bit (or a lot)? That they have emunah and bitachon in Hashem that they will not live in the street or become derelicts?
People who move to Israel do so for a reason. They aren't looking to lead a meaningless materialistic life. They have a dream and a vision and are willing to risk everything to live it. They want to be part of something. What they hope to gain by living in EY far outweighs what they might have to sacrifice.
Not everyone who has higher values than "The American Dream" is a hippy or beatnik.

Also as it says above, Israel is hardly a third world country, especially for educated Westerners. No they won't have a 5 bedroom penthouse overlooking central park, and 3 lexuses, but mud huts are pretty rare these days, and even the ones that do exist have running water and electricity. So yes it is a leap of faith, but it hardly requires jumping over a ravine or into a fiery furnace. And if it's REALLY that horrible you can always leave...

But I have to admit it completely amazes me when non religious people have such a burning desire to come to Israel that they make aliyah sometimes without ever even visiting here. They really just pack up and come here and have faith that everything will work out. It is one thing if you are frum, and you lead a life of Torah and Emunah, and came to Israel every summer, but someone who has never put on tefillin in his life or sat down at a Shabbos meal one day deciding that he is a Jew and needs to be in Israel with his extended family truly makes me stand in awe. Or those who come and volunteer in the IDF and risk their lives to defend people they don't even know or have any connection to just because they are Jews.
So there is some truth to what you are saying. Many of the people who end up here really are "special neshomas" that have a burning desire to be "connected" and coming to EY is their way of expressing it.

As other threads pointed out, an Orthodox family cannot survive on $45,000 in NY. After taxes that's something like $35,000, maybe less. That's more than many families pay in yeshiva tuition - let alone kosher food, rent in an Jewish neighborhood, and anything incidental. A frum person making $45,000 in NY is without question lower middle class and may be even taking tzedakka.

Over 98% of Olim that come with NBN - are still living in Israel three years later! (NBN has only been around since 2002).

Vast majority of Olim do NOT have jobs lined up yet 93% find work in the first year.

They have are happy because they are going to begin living a Jewish life for real and not the fake empty make-belief Jewish life of Ame-rake-a.

They don't look exhausted because they are all living their dream and fulfilling the 2000 year old dream of their ancestors to come back Home!

How could anyone NOT be excited about that?

Aliyah IS very doable!

I suggest you get on a plane and visit REAL Israel (outside the dalad amos of your sem). Visit Ramat Beit Shemesh where you see loads of children running around and playing in the streets on Shabbos. Speak to people there - they all have jobs!

Or if you don't want to get on a plane at least check out these letters real olim sent back to where they came from -
http://www.lettersfromhome.co.il/
maybe you could find one from someone you know.

I find this line offensive.
Furthermore, how do you know that they aren't just happy because they're getting off a plane (one that looks like it had screaming children on it) after 10 hours?

While I think Pinchas worded it somewhat harshly, it was actually the Rambam who said that Jews living outside of EY are not really considered part of "am yisrael." (I'm not kidding. It's in hilchot kiddush hachodesh. I'll try to find it, but I've seen this inside myself.)

Edit: all I can find in HKH is that the Jews in EY are the only ones who matter for kiddush hachodesh. I know I've seen a more expansive statement, but it seems I got the source wrong. I'll keep looking.

woohoo! go T.A.!

Why is it that you find it offensive? You want me to tell you that you can live a full rich Jewish life in a Christian country? Fine. Enjoy your new year's day off while I'll be working. Think about that tomorrow. I rather get my off day on Rosh Hashana.

I know why they are happy because I was there (in more ways that one.)

I think that he grossly oversimplified matters. While it's great to live in E"Y, there are many factors to consider before picking up and going. Contrary to what his statement implies, there are more than a few who decide not to go based on the greater impact they could have on ruchniyus in ch'l. (Yes, though he doesn't count it as a mitzvah...)No way- me too.
You can assume as to why some of them are happy. You don't know why the majority of them are happy.

Oversimplified? You mean I put it in a nutshell?



Great I'm so happy for you. You want excuses (yes, I mean fully legitimate excuses) - they exist. That doesn't change the fact that life as a Jew in Chu'L is not the ideal and I assume you daven to return to Eretz Yisrael everyday so please do us all a favor and don't get offended when G-d gives his people the opportunity to return.



No. You assume I assume. I don't assume. I know. I know why EACH and every one of them smile. I was there. I spoke with them. Each and every one. And I have been on the plane - for my own flight and for many others!

No, not at all.
I'm not offended that people make aliyah. In fact, if you'll read my post, I said that living in EY is a great thing. Please don't decide for me how I feel.
Nice pictures. (Especially the one of my friend.) I know that you've been there. I'm just saying that you can't know that everyone who got off the plane was happy because they

Maybe you are thinking of the Ramban, where he writes that Jews perform mitzvos in Chu"L just so we don't forget how to do them FOR REAL in Eretz Yisrael.

"The essence of all of the precepts is that they be performed in the Land of Hashem" (Ramban on Vayikra 18:25).

I know it. And they know it. Even if they don't know they know it.

You know it too.

(And you know you know it. Perhaps you feel it well when you visit to kotel - each and every Jew no matter how connected or detached from Torah they may be has it somewhere deep down inside them. And that is why they smile. Even if they don't know. But believe me they do know they know.)

Oh.
Just like I'm offended that Hashem gives people the opportunity to make aliyah, even though I don't know it.

I'm talking about the Jewish neshama. Stop pretending Jews don't have any.

Since when did I pretend that?

When you got offended.

With two adults working, let's assume each makes $45,000, that's $90,000 per year. Certainly many Orthodox families survive on that, and less than that.

Not with six kids.

First of all, are you talking about when I said I found a comment of yours offensive, or where you decided that aliyah offends me?
Second of all, shaychus?

Look, no one is forced to have six kids.
If a couple wants to have six kids, bevakesha.
Whether they are earning $90,000 in New York as a family (an average salary) or $35,000 a year in Israel as a family (an average salary), it is not going to be easy either way.
Which is harder?
Not sure.
True, in Israel education is cheap/almost (not quite) free.
In America Jewish education is very expensive but a family with six kids is presumably going to receive quite a bit of financial aid.
So it's sort of six of one, half dozen of the other.

Are you serious? So what every orthodox family who sends their kids to jewish school earns more then 100K a year ???

You're a smart woman so I'm surprised I have to spell it out for you.

If you got offended by comment it's because you pretend (or forgot) that inside each and every Jew is a Jewish Neshama that yearns very much to return to the Holy Land of the Jewish People and a Neshama that is never fully satisfied everywhere else. Everywhere the Jew wanders is a temporary home and the Neshama will make do with it but it will be happy when it rids itself of its fake Stepmother and returns to its true Mother.

Every orthodox family with six kids who sends their kids to jewish school and actually pays tuition and is not in debt earn more than 100k a year. Yes. Talk to any accountant if you don't believe me. The math is not very hard.

Yes, and many receive some sort of aid/at least partial scholarships.

In the NYC area? Average salary (not Jewish, just average salary) was $48980 last year. The cost of living is high. A family not making a combined income of $100K in this area will be getting massive assistance, either from the schools giving them tuition breaks or from some other source. Figuring taxes, that's maybe $70K take home. The average day school tuition is actually more than $10k a year per kid, and rent on an apartment in the suburbs (forget a house or a mortgage or an apartment in the city) that can fit a few kids is going to be minimally $1500 a month, and that's a steal. Add in a car (and gas and insurance), and food and clothing, and we are way over $70K even without anything like vacation. You can make middle class frum in NY on $100K, but it can't be done on much less.

Indeed. Though I have seen reports about how the private Jewish education system is starting to break down because fewer and fewer families pay full and there isn't enough money to pay the teachers. How long can this go on?

Really I'm asking you to spell it out for me because I'm not privy to the exact inner workings of each and every person's neshama. If you are, I want to hear about it.
A couple questions (again, this is if you're able to tell me how each and every person's neshama works, b'chol prateha):
-Can it not be more satisfying for an individual's neshama to accomplish great things rushniyus-wise in England than to live in E'Y but not be able to accomplish the same?
-Is the neshama ever truly satisfied in galus, a situation of hester panim?

In a nutshell there are heterim to live in Chul but that is not the ideal situation for the neshama.

For the full version however you will have to read this book.

Thank you for this post. So basically what you're saying is that these people had good careers in America, and had transferrable skills to make it in Israel.


Right, I was. But to be honest I'm also boggled by single people who do it...and married people with kids who do it...and secular people who do it...


Absolutely


Right, these people appear to value materialism to a certain extent, that's why there's a shaalah on them.


Um, I don't know a single person like this.


I was actually more boggled by the not frum people who did it, but decided to focus on the affordability for this thread because I figured I don't have enough of an understanding of Zionism. For frum people who value their Jewishness to want to move to a Jewish country, I can understand. But for secular people who appear to be so integrated into secular society, it's truly mind-boggling that they'd want to go through the hassle.


Are you insinuating something?

Thank you for your post as well. I have seen Ramat Beit Shemesh and actually loved it there and I do know that you can live a beautiful life there. I recognize that of course. It's not something I see practically for myself, but I can get living there. I guess I'm more boggled by the definitive statement of aliyah, that I am leaving my world behind (even though the world keeps on shrinking, so it's not so much like that anymore) and jumping off into the unknown. But some of the comments on this thread are dispelling that.


I'm working tomorrow and I get off for Rosh Hashana.


She didn't get offended by that, she got offended by your tone. You could've said the same thing in a nicer way. It just rolled off of me though because I know you have an agenda to push. But you presented your idea in an offensive manner.

Not necessarily but it is certainly not an oddity... Most people have jobs or SOME sort of job skills. Those that don't will be broke in America too....


It's amazing that you can completely size up "these people" merely by looking at pictures of them....


1. This often has NOTHING to do with Zionism, although I think Zionism had a lot to do with misplaced yearning for spirituality and instead of being Expressed through Torah it found other wayward paths...
2. Secular Jews are still Jews. They are not completely and utterly devoid of all spirituality. Even goyim l'havdil often look for meaning in life. In fact that may very well be the reason they come. A Frum Jew really doesn't "need" EY. He has Torah and Mitzvos, lives in a frum community and doesn't get the full effect of "galus". But someone frei has nothing and is totally immersed in galus.
3. Jews as wayward as they get usually want to be connected with the Jewish People, and Israel is the natural place to do that.
4. Why is it any stranger than people "suddenly" becoming Baalei Teshuva?



I don't insinuate...

Im moving to tzfat in a couple of weeks
Im not worried

To where?

B'hatzlacha, enjoy!

errrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmm
im not really moving into my own place but rather to the dorms of shalom rav and then hopefully to my own place but i dont really have plans on coming back

Wave hi to my apartment for me.
Send my love to everyone. Tell them I miss them.

i will
i think i saw u by avichai's vort - i know i met ur husband there
wtvr
ill tell every1 u say hi
when ru coming back

Right, I meant to meet you. I'm sure you saw me


thank you

iy"H after my husband gets a transplant. Keep davening.