Mesilas Yesharim Ch. 5

He list here three things that detract from "watchfulness" 1) being overly occupied with worldly matters 2) occupied with laughter and jest 3) bad companions

He then disuses each one individually.

from the beginning, it sounds like it list the first one - "being overly occupied with worldly matters" as opposed to being occupied with torah- is first since it is the most important one, as he says:



However he starts off the second one (about exsseive lauther and jest) with these words:



Which makes it sound like it is going from easier to harder, so what is the order?

While I am bumping (as per asked\advised) I might as well add (as also asked\advised). [ETA since I am told some are having a busy week]



While I think it fair to say that most people will agree with the above [I.E> that one has to be careful of his companionship so that when "the truth of a man's responsibility for Divine service and Watchfulness has impressed itself upon a person" he not weaken and "commit certain trespasses in order not to be mocked by his friends or to be able to mix freely with them."] , and have had experience one way or the other with things like that, have you had the same experience with being online (for example h.com) ? do you think you have to be more or less careful with online friends? would you say it is much harder in a way to be wary of this online?

Yes.
Same, depends on the friend.
Yes.

I am still on this chapter, sorry, I am way behind.

This chapter was not very helpful. And raised many questions for me.

For example, it says that preoccupation with worldy affairs causes lack of watchfulness. But still, he says, one must have a job and conduct worldy affairs. You just have to make sure you also study Torah. What is the connection?

What is it about worldly affairs that cause you to become less watchful? Where is the danger? Is it just a halachic concern, that one may forget oneself and transgress halacha? If so, should the set time of Torah study he recommends be spent on practical everyday halacha? Should it be spent learning halachos that come up in the workplace and business?

Or is there a general intrinsic value in studying Torah? I don't think so, not according to this chapter. It sounds like he is referring to the idea that if you study halacha you are less likely to transgress it.

I believe its a question of priorities. If one is preoccupied with everything (worldly affairs) but Torah,and the only way to attain/maintain watchfulness is by learning Torah,it stands to reason there will be a weakening in watchfulness.If you view your involvement in worldly affairs as a necessary evil,but the learning of Torah as your lifeline to G-d,one's preoccupation becomes that of Torah and mitzvos.

Lets for arguments sake assume that the worldly affairs being spoken of here are of the kosher/benign variety. Even with such pursuits,one can lose focus as to one's purpose here on this earth. Are we here to make money or to gain Olam haba'ah? Without the constant of Torah keeping us focused,we can lose sight of what is truly important.

Chazal say "Kol hashoneh halachos b'chol yom muvtach lo she'hu ben Olam haba'ah."-"One who studies halachos every day is guaranteed a chelek in Olam Haba'ah." That said, it can also be beneficial to study mussar daily to constantly work on our attitude towards life and business.

There is an intrinsic value in studying Torah. It imbues us with a spirit of kedusha and brings us closer to G-d. "Ki heim chayeynu v'orech yameinu ubahem nehegeh yomam v'layalah" At the same time, it is imperative one learns halachah in order to know what to do practically from day to day. If one only has a few minutes a day available to learn,one should ask their Rebbie/Rav what is the best limud for them to study.
I heard a story said ( I believe) in the name of the Chofetz Chayim. Someone came over to him with this very question. His response was to study mussar. In that way he will find more time to learn.

good answers. still, people have a set time to learn daf yomi. or they learn the parsha. i don't think doing that helps in watchfulness in the way this chapter is describing.

and what do you do with the GRA who compares Torah learning with rain, which falls on weeds and wheat alike?

For the record, the halachos refered to by that Chazal I quoted above was referring to Talmud study. It is the basis of our modern halachic framework.Also, it would depend on how one learns the Parshah. It too can be studied in a way that satisfies both the learning and learning for watchfulness.That said, who says it all they study?
I'm not familiar with this GRA. What does he mean by that statement?

People often set aside an hour a day to learn. Daf yomi doesn't take less than an hour for an average Joe. Obviously if someone sets aside more time without hurting his family and his business then that's nice.




It's on Mishlei, I forget which passuk, somewhere in the teens. He means that just like the rain waters the weeds and the good plants alike, so too Torah study will make an evil person more evil, and a good person better.

For the record: One should have a set time to learn both by day and by night. "Vehigisah bo yomam valaylah" Even if for only a few minutes. Chazal say that l'asid lavo they will ask a person if he was kove'ah itim for Torah study daily. "Itim" means times.



Without knowing the context its hard for me to comment. Perhaps it means that an evil person will use Torah to further his agenda. Even a little bit of explosives is dangerous in the hands of a novice.
The evil person will use it to become a menuval b'rishus haTorah.
Burt again, this is pure speculation.

The way I learned it is that it does not change your middos radically. An arrogant person will grow more arrogant as he masters Gemara, and the humble person will grow more humble.

I was of the understanding that middos in and of themselves are not good or bad.They are just character traits.Which,depending on how they are used,can be good or bad. By learning Torah one will be able to learn how and where to channel these character traits positively.

Don't we consider traits like arrogance, quick temper, or gluttony to be "bad", and things like humility or being quick to forgive to be "good"?

In the classical sense perhaps. But with every trait,there are positive and negative applications.Lets take for example arrogance. Chazal teach us to be "uz kanamer" arrogant like a leopard when dealing with the yetzer horah. Being humble and meek when evil is being perpetrated is a negative. So is being quick to forgive if the person is unrepentant and it emboldens them to continue do do evil. My Rebbie always taught us (based on Chazal?) that the adulterer is in reality a giver of himself,who has not learned to properly give in its proper form. So the act of giving in this application is clearly evil.

That's pretty much what Orchos Tzaddikim is about (except for the last three chapters, but that is a derail for another day); there are times even when 'bad' middos like anger or arrogance need to be utilised.

Right. But this is not what the GRA is talking about in his moshul of weeds and plants and rain.

Do y'all think that humor is problematic? It seems from this chapter that the Ramchal isn't a fan.


The second deterrent, however, laughter and levity, is very severe. He who is immersed in it is as one who is immersed in a great ocean, from which it is extremely difficult to escape. For laughter affects a person's heart in such a manner that sense and reason no longer prevail in him, so that he becomes like a drunkard or a simpleton, whom, because they cannot accept direction, it is impossible to advise or direct. As was said by King Solomon, may Peace be upon him (Ecclesiastes 2:2), "About laughter I have said, `It is silly,' and about happiness, `What does it do?"' And our Sages of blessed memory have said (Avoth 3.13), "Laughter and lightheadedness motivate a man towards illicit relations." For even though every reasoning individual recognizes the gravity of this kind of sin and his heart is afraid to approach it because of the vividness of the impression that has stamped itself into his mind, of the truly terrible nature of the offense and the severity of its punishment, still laughter and lightheadedness draw him on little by little and lead him closer and closer to the stage where fear leaves him little by little, degree by degree, until finally he reaches the sin itself and commits it. Why is this so? Just as the essence of Watchfulness involves applying one's heart to things, so the essence of laughter is the turning away of one's heart from just, attentive thinking, so that thoughts of fearing God do not enter one's heart at all.

Consider the great severity and destructive power of levity. Like a shield smeared with oil, which wards off arrows and causes them to fall to the ground, not permitting them to reach the bearer's body, is levity in the face of reproof and rebuke. For with one bit of levity and with a little laughter a person can cast from himself the great majority of the awakenings and impressions that a man's heart stimulates and effects within itself upon his seeing or hearing things which arouse him to an acconting and an examination of his deeds. The force of levity flings everything to the ground so that no impression whatsoever is made upon Him. This is due not to the weakness of the forces playing upon him, nor to any lack of understanding on his part, but to the power of levity, which obliterates all facets of moral evaluation and fear of God. Touching this the Prophet Isaiah "screamed like a crane," for he saw that it was this which left no place for his exhortations to make an impression and which destroyed all hope for the sinners. As it is stated (Isaiah 28:22), "And now do not engage in levity lest your bonds be strengthened." And our Sages have pronounced (Avodah Zarah 18b) that one who is given to levity brings suffering upon himself. Scripture itself explicity states (Proverbs 19:29), "Judgments are appropriate for the light-headed." Indeed, this is dictated by reason; for one who is influenced by thought and studies does not require bodily punishment, for he will leave off sinning without it by virtue of the thoughts of repentance which will arise in his heart through what he will read or hear of moral judgments and exhortations. But the light-headed, who because of the force of their levity are not influenced by exhortations cannot be corrected except through punitive judgments. For their levity will not be as effective in warding off these as it is in warding off ethical appeals. In accordance with the severity of the sin and its consequences is the True Judge severe in His punishment. As our Sages of blessed memory have taught us (Avodah Zarah 18b), "The punishment for levity is extremely severe; it begins with suffering and ends with destruction, as it is said (Isaiah 28:22), `Lest your bonds be strengthened, for I have heard destruction and cutting off..."




Someone had asked why I find this sefer hard to connect to, well that's another reason.

I don't think the Ramchal is referring to humor per se' as much as the levity and laughter of leitzanus. Which is essentially mockery. A classic example is the Howard Dean scream. What would otherwise have been viewed by an objective public as a motivated campaigner enthusiastically getting his supporters excited,is now viewed as the sound of a madman.Because of leitzanus. Humor is the easiest method employed by the mockers.It has the potential to destroy the truly important things in life.That doesn't mean humor and laughter are intrinsically bad.

Good point and good analogy, Nooch. I actually learnt that sugya in Avoda Zara today, the greater context of what he's quoting is talking about a place where people go to fool around and make a mockery of things and waste time in general.

Is mockery mentioned in this abstract? He is talking about light-headedness and joking around, not an evil guy going around mocking things, which is a different problem...

Who said anything about an evil guy? The Ramchal here is talking about the negative effects of laughter/humour on the individual. I'm just saying that the context of the quote in the gemara is a little different, that's all.

Who said anything about an evil guy?
The joking around he refers to is like your average comedian today whose entire repertoire consists of making fun of important people and issues. Everyone laughs but in the end what's left is an unmotivated and directional-less people.

Right. Thanks. I disagree that laughter and humor are negative. Some of my favorite rabbis are extremely funny, and people who take everything very seriously are quite annoying to be around. People who laugh a lot live healthier, happier lives.