Mesilas Yesharim ch. 7

He first describes how there are two divisions of "zeal" 1) before you start the Mitzvah - you should start as soon as possible and not push it off 2) once you already started you should finish it as soon as possible (of course he explains that this should NOT be in order to "get it over with" but rather for fear that it won't be completed).

he then says:



Which I take to mean that even if one does not really "feel" any zeal, if he acts like he does, he will eventually create it by himself and have it, which is interesting in itself but would this apply to other things besides "zeal" as well, for instance if one were to act as if he is pious and be strict in things he does (even if he does not really feel that he is on that level) would he in the end become like that? (I am NOT asking about someone who is just doing it to show off or to fool people in to thinking he is pious, I am asking about someone who is doing it in order to eventually reach that level) does it work that way?is this a commendable approach ?

I believe so. The chitzonius will be me'orer the p'nimius.

Ditto, though again -- only if it's not to impress others or the like.
I'm wondering about improving the chitzonius because of society (not because one wants to impress, but rather because the person thinks it's the right thing to do) -- does it improve the pnimius?

(Zeal probably works even when the person is doing it to impress others. Some other things too, such as being besimcha.)

I think he is referring specifically to "movement of the limbs" -- physical actions. Walking fast makes it seem like you are doing something more urgent. Gesticulating during lerning makes you more involved in it. Same with movement during davening. There's also an idea that physical exercise, activity is the best cure for melancholy.

I don't think that logic can necessarily be extended to taking on chumras, but iirc he will address those later in the book.

are you asking about improving the "chitzonius" of society to improve its "pnimus" ?


hmm so you are of th eopnion that it only works with movement, but why should there be a difference?

That question has a lot of potential.

because he speaks specifically of movement of the limbs, and because there are mussar schools afaik that adopted this full-body approach, probably based on this recommendation.

also because there are clear physiological pathways as to how physical movements affect your state of mind. it is a direct relationship. the other stuff is a lot less direct.

also taking on chumras doesn't seem to have anything to do with the specific quality of zeal which is discussed here -- though i did not have a chance to read the last 2 chapters very carefully, just skimmed through it, so i could be wrong.

yeah but what is the answer?



you said you think he discusses this later, so I will perhaps wait until then.

I don't know about "the" answer, but I've definitely observed more uniformity of thought in schools which enforce uniforms or very strict dress codes.

that's why the OPS wants you to dress in black and white. (Well, black only if you're a woman).

interesting, but I don't know if that is a good example, since it may just be that this that they have a very strict dress code is a symptom of this that they try and enforce a certain school of thought.

Yes, they're trying to me'orrer the pnimiyus.

So you are saying that they purposely have a strict dress code in order to create a specific pnimius?

I think that's one way of looking at it. It does seem to me it works to some extent.

Yes, in the sense that thought-free clones are created and conformity is ensured.

Wouldn't you say that based on this it would be hard to call someone a hypocrite, after all it can just be that he needs more time until his "pnimius" becomes like his "chitzonius"?

Yes, absolutely.
I don't believe it's usually possible to tell if someone else is a hypocrite or not.

Only the person themselves really knows if they're doing something just for show or because they want to change (and it can be both.)

I disagree.

With which part? that that is why they do it? that it works? that it even CAN work?

I disagree that there are uniforms in order that the outside should influence the inside. I think uniforms are in place so that there shouldn't be tznius problems and also because uniforms are neater and more professional. In that case, maybe yes, you'll take school more seriously if you're in a uniform than in a jean skirt (probably the same reasons a Catholic school has uniforms).

But I disagree that the reason schools have uniforms is to influence a particular inside. And I disagree that it will do that. I don't think girls are any more tznius outside of school because they're used to wearing a tznius uniform every day.

hmm ok, but how about in general does or can and does the outside influence the inside?

Yes, I think it does.

I do have a problem with theatrics during davening though, although I may be wrong for having a problem with it.

It can and does if that is your intent.

Notreallyhere- whether people like it or not, if they cover up a certain amount all day, if when they come home they uncover it, they get the feeling of uncovering something that was covered. If they're used to it they don't even feel the change.

just because the skin of your legs and arms doesn't get any fresh air all day long doesn't mean that you are growing in "zeal", (if we are still talking about zeal), or any other positive quality.