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Yehudi
Mesilas Yesharim ch. 9

He starts off saying "The factors which detract from Zeal are those which promote laziness" later he says that "Another deterrent to Zeal is trepidation and fear in relation to what time may bring," then he says:

QUOTE
which our Sages of blessed memory interpreted (Devarim Rabbah 8:7) as an illustration of the extent to which vain fear can go to separate a man from a good deed: "Solomon said seven things in relation to the lazy man: If people say to the lazy man, `Your teacher is in the city; go and learn Torah from him,' he answers, `I am afraid of the lion on the road.' If they say, `Your teacher is within the province,' he answers, `I am afraid of the lion between the ways.' If they say, `He is in your house,' he answers, `If I go to him I will find the door locked..."' We see, then, that it is not fear which leads to laziness, but laziness which leads to fear.


Meaning that the two factors are really one.

at the end of the chapter he writes:

QUOTE
The foregoing discussion of Zeal, I trust, will suffice to awaken the heart. He who is wise will wax wiser and add to his wisdom. Zeal, it should be noted, is appropriately placed a level above Watchfulness; for generally a person will not be Zealous unless he is first Watchful. One who does not concentrate upon being Watchful in his deeds and upon considering Divine service and its principles (such concentration constituting the trait of Watchfulness, as I have already written) will find it very difficult to cloak himself with love and yearning for it and to be Zealous with longing before His Creator; for such a person is still immersed in bodily desires and subject to the inclination of his habits, which draws him away from all this. However, after his eyes will have opened to see his deeds and to be Watchful of them, and he will have made the accounting of good deeds against bad that we mentioned, it will be easy for him to depart from evil and to long and be Zealous for good. This is self-evident.


Which seems to answer the question we had previously if watchfulness has to come before zeal or if both have to come together.
Moshi
Everything he writes about laziness is true. Of course, if you are a lazy person, you'll come up with a thousand excuses not to do something.

But now what? How does a grown person who is quite undisciplined and a procrastinator change his ways? What does this chapter teach us besides "Stop being lazy, it is bad for you"?
Yehudi
QUOTE (Moshi @ Jan 30 2008, 01:57 PM) *
But now what? How does a grown person who is quite undisciplined and a procrastinator change his ways? What does this chapter teach us besides "Stop being lazy, it is bad for you"?


hmmm, could it be that when he writes:

QUOTE
The foregoing discussion of Zeal, I trust, will suffice to awaken the heart. He who is wise will wax wiser and add to his wisdom. Zeal, it should be noted, is appropriately placed a level above Watchfulness; for generally a person will not be Zealous unless he is first Watchful. One who does not concentrate upon being Watchful in his deeds and upon considering Divine service and its principles (such concentration constituting the trait of Watchfulness, as I have already written) will find it very difficult to cloak himself with love and yearning for it and to be Zealous with longing before His Creator; for such a person is still immersed in bodily desires and subject to the inclination of his habits, which draws him away from all this. However, after his eyes will have opened to see his deeds and to be Watchful of them, and he will have made the accounting of good deeds against bad that we mentioned, it will be easy for him to depart from evil and to long and be Zealous for good. This is self-evident.


He is saying that if one is holding at this level (having done the previous things) reading what he writes here and being aware of what laziness can cause, will suffice to "awaken the heart" and the person what be lazy anymore?

but good question.

Moshi
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Jan 30 2008, 02:05 PM) *
hmmm, could it be that when he writes:



He is saying that if one is holding at this level (having done the previous things) reading what he writes here and being aware of what laziness can cause, will suffice to "awaken the heart" and the person what be lazy anymore?

but good question.


In other words he thinks it's enough to say "Don't you know that G-d wants you to not be lazy? Don't you know that you'll miss out on afterlife rewards if you're lazy? Don't you know that doing mitzvos are good for you?" and the person will stop procrastinating.

I don't know. I was hoping for more practical ideas....

Personally I have trouble leaving enough time in the morning for davening, or getting to shul on time Shabbos mornings, or going to the gym. Just like the Ramchal rights here, I say things like "What's the point of getting to the shul on time, and then falling alseep during the Rav's drash, like all those other people? Best to sleep another half hour."

I really wish I could change to be more disciplined, but it's just not my personality. . . .
Yehudi
QUOTE (Moshi @ Jan 30 2008, 02:15 PM) *
In other words he thinks it's enough to say "Don't you know that G-d wants you to not be lazy? Don't you know that you'll miss out on afterlife rewards if you're lazy? Don't you know that doing mitzvos are good for you?" and the person will stop procrastinating.

I don't know. I was hoping for more practical ideas....

Personally I have trouble leaving enough time in the morning for davening, or getting to shul on time Shabbos mornings, or going to the gym. Just like the Ramchal rights here, I say things like "What's the point of getting to the shul on time, and then falling alseep during the Rav's drash, like all those other people? Best to sleep another half hour."

I really wish I could change to be more disciplined, but it's just not my personality. . . .


Perhaps what he really means is, that you should follow what he said to achieve "Zeal", and you will achieve it, however you should be aware of laziness which might impede it, but as long as you are going for "zeal" and are aware of laziness and its problems, you will achieve it.
Moshi
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Jan 30 2008, 02:23 PM) *
Perhaps what he really means is, that you should follow what he said to achieve "Zeal", and you will achieve it, however you should be aware of laziness which might impede it, but as long as you are going for "zeal" and are aware of laziness and its problems, you will achieve it.


hmm. maybe so.
Nooch
QUOTE (Moshi @ Jan 30 2008, 02:15 PM) *
In other words he thinks it's enough to say "Don't you know that G-d wants you to not be lazy? Don't you know that you'll miss out on afterlife rewards if you're lazy? Don't you know that doing mitzvos are good for you?" and the person will stop procrastinating.

I don't know. I was hoping for more practical ideas....

Personally I have trouble leaving enough time in the morning for davening, or getting to shul on time Shabbos mornings, or going to the gym. Just like the Ramchal rights here, I say things like "What's the point of getting to the shul on time, and then falling alseep during the Rav's drash, like all those other people? Best to sleep another half hour."

I really wish I could change to be more disciplined, but it's just not my personality. . . .

I have the same trouble. I think that the first statement while true is often times to out of our collective reach to motivate us. Conversely,when I know that I will benefit financially or the like,suddenly I am not lazy. What it boils down to is recognizing the thing stopping us is laziness coupled with our not appreciating the reward of our efforts.
To combat this you can give yourself more practical incentives. Something that you know will motivate you. Be it a positive or negative incentive. Which ever works best for you. In this way,it will become routine enough that you won't desist from doing it."M'toch shelo leshma bo leshma". At the same time I think its imperative to convince yourself of the worthiness of the goal in and of itself-the "leshma". With both working simultaneously (the practical incentive coupled with learning to appreciate the ultimate goal) ,hopefully we can come to reach this lofty goal.
Moshi
QUOTE (Nooch @ Jan 30 2008, 03:46 PM) *
I have the same trouble. I think that the first statement while true is often times to out of our collective reach to motivate us. Conversely,when I know that I will benefit financially or the like,suddenly I am not lazy. What it boils down to is recognizing the thing stopping us is laziness coupled with our not appreciating the reward of our efforts.
To combat this you can give yourself more practical incentives. Something that you know will motivate you. Be it a positive or negative incentive. Which ever works best for you. In this way,it will become routine enough that you won't desist from doing it."M'toch shelo leshma bo leshma". At the same time I think its imperative to convince yourself of the worthiness of the goal in and of itself-the "leshma". With both working simultaneously (the practical incentive coupled with learning to appreciate the ultimate goal) ,hopefully we can come to reach this lofty goal.



I like this suggestion. Have you tried this?
Nooch
QUOTE (Moshi @ Jan 30 2008, 04:18 PM) *
I like this suggestion. Have you tried this?

Yes. Constantly.
Moshi
QUOTE (Nooch @ Jan 30 2008, 05:31 PM) *
Yes. Constantly.


feel free to share an example smile.gif
Nooch
My biggest challenge is getting up for minyan. As a high schooler,I was knas'ed. It worked only to get me there. But now, in addition to my laziness,I struggle with the resentment I have for such methods,and those who employed them. It improved dramatically in Beis Medrash when my Rebbeim encouraged me by making me feel needed for the vibrancy and energy of the minyan. They also charted my progress which was a great help as well.It was always with positive reenforcement. When I got married,we lived in a very small community where every Jew was prized. You felt special contributing in even the most modest ways-such as making the minyan.
Now I convince myself that I need to maintain my record as a positive role model for my children. All the while I study mussar to learn to appreciate and love Hashem more.
My hope is that when I truly come to love and appreciate G-d, I won't need to do it for any other reason other than to express my love and devotion to Hashem.
Moshi
thumbsup.gif

I think I may try this kind of approach.
Nooch
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 1 2008, 12:37 AM) *
thumbsup.gif

I think I may try this kind of approach.

I'm glad I can be of some help.
Hatzlachah rabbah!
Moshi
QUOTE (Nooch @ Feb 1 2008, 01:03 AM) *
I'm glad I can be of some help.
Hatzlachah rabbah!


Well what do you know! I dragged myself out today to make the 6:30am minyan, for the first time in months, and it just so happened that I was the 10th man. Shkoyach Nooch smile.gif We'll see if I can keep this up, I quite liked it.
Yehudi
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 11 2008, 12:51 PM) *
Well what do you know! I dragged myself out today to make the 6:30am minyan, for the first time in months, and it just so happened that I was the 10th man. Shkoyach Nooch smile.gif We'll see if I can keep this up, I quite liked it.


What do you know, some good has come out of all this afterall smile.gif
Moshi
QUOTE (Yehudi @ Feb 11 2008, 12:56 PM) *
What do you know, some good has come out of all this afterall smile.gif


Isn't that the idea of mussar books? tongue.gif But we'll see if this continues, my laziness is a tough foe.
Nooch
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 11 2008, 12:51 PM) *
Well what do you know! I dragged myself out today to make the 6:30am minyan, for the first time in months, and it just so happened that I was the 10th man. Shkoyach Nooch smile.gif We'll see if I can keep this up, I quite liked it.

thumbsup.gif



Just to clarify. What about it did you quite like about it? Try to replicate it. You'll feel great about yourself in a short time.Good luck my man!
Moshi
QUOTE (Nooch @ Feb 11 2008, 04:09 PM) *
thumbsup.gif



Just to clarify. What about it did you quite like about it? Try to replicate it. You'll feel great about yourself in a short time.Good luck my man!


I liked being the 10th man and helping them complete their minyan (they eventually got 12 people).
I liked going to the little 10 minute gemara mini-shiur after davening.
I liked davening with other people first thing in the morning, as opposed to sleeping in and then rushing through it on my own.
I am going to like coming home from work earlier and being with my wife since I got to work earlier, even with the long davening.
I liked hearing the Torah read.
smile.gif

(I did not like getting the kibbud of tying the Torah, 'cause I don't like kibbudim, and I never know what I'm meant to do. )
Nooch
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 11 2008, 04:14 PM) *
I liked being the 10th man and helping them complete their minyan (they eventually got 12 people).
I liked going to the little 10 minute gemara mini-shiur after davening.
I liked davening with other people first thing in the morning, as opposed to sleeping in and then rushing through it on my own.
I am going to like coming home from work earlier and being with my wife since I got to work earlier, even with the long davening.
I liked hearing the Torah read.

smile.gif

Sounds like you have quite a few solid incentives to motivate you. Hatzlachah rabah!
Moshi
QUOTE (Nooch @ Feb 11 2008, 04:17 PM) *
Sounds like you have quite a few solid incentives to motivate you. Hatzlachah rabah!


aye, we'll see the evil inclination is lurking in the shadows hippy.gif
Nooch
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 11 2008, 04:19 PM) *
aye, we'll see the evil inclination is lurking in the shadows hippy.gif

It always does...and pounces when you think you've beaten it.
Moshi
Well it's 2 for 2 so far. A guy there wants to set up chavrusa at 5:30am, an hour before the minyan. I really want to and if I go to bed at 10, it's doable. I have no time in the evenings. Hmm. But it's DARK and COLD at 5:30am.
accolade
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 12 2008, 03:26 PM) *
Well it's 2 for 2 so far. A guy there wants to set up chavrusa at 5:30am, an hour before the minyan. I really want to and if I go to bed at 10, it's doable. I have no time in the evenings. Hmm. But it's DARK and COLD at 5:30am.

That's really laudable and if you can make it one time out of five, I think you'd be doing really well.
Moshi
So far so good sunny.gif
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