What are some options how to handle the logistics of a Friday night mikvah?
Let's start with the default scenario of Nechama Dina is ready before candle lighting, after which she eats nothing, and she waits for Sender to come home from shul with the boys, by which time the girls are home from the Ateres tznius program. When tatte comes home, Nechama Dina walks to the mikvah while Sender and the children wait at home. Nechama Dina comes home, shalom aleichem and eishet chayil is sung, Sender makes kiddush and all is well.
If that's a starting point, what are other logistical options?
Full Version: Friday Night Mikvah
ummmmmmmmm
what do u tell the kids when their mom bounces for like a half hour
and what if the mikvah isnt walkable distance?
what do u tell the kids when their mom bounces for like a half hour
and what if the mikvah isnt walkable distance?
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 29 2008, 06:52 PM) 
What are some options how to handle the logistics of a Friday night mikvah?
Let's start with the default scenario of Nechama Dina is ready before candle lighting, after which she eats nothing, and she waits for Sender to come home from shul with the boys, by which time the girls are home from the Ateres tznius program. When tatte comes home, Nechama Dina walks to the mikvah while Sender and the children wait at home. Nechama Dina comes home, shalom aleichem and eishet chayil is sung, Sender makes kiddush and all is well.
If that's a starting point, what are other logistical options?
Let's start with the default scenario of Nechama Dina is ready before candle lighting, after which she eats nothing, and she waits for Sender to come home from shul with the boys, by which time the girls are home from the Ateres tznius program. When tatte comes home, Nechama Dina walks to the mikvah while Sender and the children wait at home. Nechama Dina comes home, shalom aleichem and eishet chayil is sung, Sender makes kiddush and all is well.
If that's a starting point, what are other logistical options?
If boys are in shul and girls are in tznius program, why not go then?
QUOTE (LoveToLaugh @ Jan 29 2008, 08:16 PM)
If boys are in shul and girls are in tznius program, why not go then?
Typically, shul starts before sunset with minchah and husband comes home let's say an hour later, which is around tzeit - and she can't go till around tzeit anyway. Basically, it's usually still too early when the boys are in shul and girls are in tznius program.
In any event, let's assume there are very young children still at home like a baby which Sender refuses to bring to shul till he's toilet trained.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 29 2008, 08:26 PM)
Typically, shul starts before sunset with minchah and husband comes home let's say an hour later, which is around tzeit - and she can't go till around tzeit anyway. Basically, it's usually still too early when the boys are in shul and girls are in tznius program.
In any event, let's assume there are very young children still at home like a baby which Sender refuses to bring to shul till he's toilet trained.
In any event, let's assume there are very young children still at home like a baby which Sender refuses to bring to shul till he's toilet trained.
Then Sender can stay home. Or come home early.
QUOTE (Menachem E @ Jan 29 2008, 07:29 PM)
ummmmmmmmm
what do u tell the kids when their mom bounces for like a half hour
what do u tell the kids when their mom bounces for like a half hour
parents are wily and cunning creatures.
QUOTE (agent220 @ Jan 29 2008, 08:47 PM)
Then Sender can stay home. Or come home early.
ok, let's say Sender stays home or comes home early. Let's say he feels his wife's and family's convenience trumps tefillah be-tzibbur.
But all else stays equal? The whole family still waits to make kiddush till Nechama Dinah comes back from the mikvah let's say at least 30 minutes after tzeit? How do we reconcile that with the Mishnah Berurah who advises an early kiddush as a general rule in order not to keep everyone waiting and interfering with their oneg shabbat?
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 29 2008, 08:56 PM)
ok, let's say Sender stays home or comes home early. Let's say he feels his wife's and family's convenience trumps tefillah be-tzibbur.
But all else stays equal? The whole family still waits to make kiddush till Nechama Dinah comes back from the mikvah let's say at least 30 minutes after tzeit? How do we reconcile that with the Mishnah Berurah who advises an early kiddush as a general rule in order not to keep everyone waiting and interfering with their oneg shabbat?
But all else stays equal? The whole family still waits to make kiddush till Nechama Dinah comes back from the mikvah let's say at least 30 minutes after tzeit? How do we reconcile that with the Mishnah Berurah who advises an early kiddush as a general rule in order not to keep everyone waiting and interfering with their oneg shabbat?
(It's not necessarily convenience as much as mikvah policy in many places, BTW. Most are open only for a short while on Friday nights from what I understand.)
Yes, they wait a bit for kiddush. I don't know about that Mishna Berura, but I think that many times a woman faces hardship going on Friday night and I think she might be very uncomfortable making her own kiddush. I don't know the practical solution, or the most advised solution, or what.
P.S. Nice avatar.
There's no option of getting someone to watch the kids until daddy comes home???
QUOTE (agent220 @ Jan 29 2008, 09:06 PM)
I think that many times a woman faces hardship going on Friday night and I think she might be very uncomfortable making her own kiddush. I don't know the practical solution, or the most advised solution, or what.
I'm just looking for various scenarios, war gaming if you will, some of which might be workable for some, and others of which might be workable for others. Maybe some on h.com have suggestions that others can adopt or adapt.
What do you mean by Nechama Dinah making her own kiddush? You mean the family doesn't wait for her, but goes ahead and makes kiddush and starts to eat, and she catches up when she gets home? That has the advantage of the kids not having to wait till very late, but it doesn't sound very polite. After all, even if a guest is late, I'm sure people would wait, al achat kamah ve-chamah a family for the mom.
Should the kids eat before shabbos?
What if the kids make kiddush and start to eat, but not Sender, and Sender waits for Nechama Dinah to come home and then he makes kiddush for her and eats with her?
And should Sender be going with her to walk her and leaving the kids with older siblings or a babysitter if possible?
QUOTE (Kalashnikover_Rebbe @ Jan 29 2008, 09:12 PM)
There's no option of getting someone to watch the kids until daddy comes home???
I assume sometimes yes and sometimes no. Try getting a babysitter right when shabbat starts. I'd assume most babysitters are eating with their families at that time.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 29 2008, 06:52 PM)
What are some options how to handle the logistics of a Friday night mikvah?
Let's start with the default scenario of Nechama Dina is ready before candle lighting, after which she eats nothing, and she waits for Sender to come home from shul with the boys, by which time the girls are home from the Ateres tznius program. When tatte comes home, Nechama Dina walks to the mikvah while Sender and the children wait at home. Nechama Dina comes home, shalom aleichem and eishet chayil is sung, Sender makes kiddush and all is well.
If that's a starting point, what are other logistical options?
Let's start with the default scenario of Nechama Dina is ready before candle lighting, after which she eats nothing, and she waits for Sender to come home from shul with the boys, by which time the girls are home from the Ateres tznius program. When tatte comes home, Nechama Dina walks to the mikvah while Sender and the children wait at home. Nechama Dina comes home, shalom aleichem and eishet chayil is sung, Sender makes kiddush and all is well.
If that's a starting point, what are other logistical options?
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I believe that every Jewish home should have a kosher mikvah within.
Another issue is what you tell the kids about why mommy isn't home at kiddush time.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 29 2008, 09:13 PM)
What do you mean by Nechama Dinah making her own kiddush? You mean the family doesn't wait for her, but goes ahead and makes kiddush and starts to eat, and she catches up when she gets home? That has the advantage of the kids not having to wait till very late, but it doesn't sound very polite. After all, even if a guest is late, I'm sure people would wait, al achat kamah ve-chamah a family for the mom.
I agree, which is why I said I don't think that's an adequate solution. So on one hand you have no waiting for kiddush but then ND is left all alone and on the other hand you have the waiting being not advised by the MB. I am no posek, but I would choose the waiting.
QUOTE
Should the kids eat before shabbos?
Not a bad idea if they'll be hungry and kvetchy.
QUOTE
What if the kids make kiddush and start to eat, but not Sender, and Sender waits for Nechama Dinah to come home and then he makes kiddush for her and eats with her?
Workable depending on age of kids, but still I like the family scenario better. Waiting is a good midda to get accustomed to, especially in our immediate have-it-now times.
QUOTE
And should Sender be going with her to walk her and leaving the kids with older siblings or a babysitter if possible?
If someone can watch the kids, that's nice. It also depends on location of mikvah to home. If it's down the block, no need. If it's far or unsafe neighborhood, the woman should walk with someone.
QUOTE (Pure Myrrh @ Jan 29 2008, 09:15 PM)
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I believe that every Jewish home should have a kosher mikvah within.
Complete with attendant?
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 29 2008, 09:19 PM)
Another issue is what you tell the kids about why mommy isn't home at kiddush time.
She went to do a mitzvah. For all the kids know, she is doing bikur cholim or what not. I know someone who b'shitta doesn't tell her kids every where she goes because it's not their business, and they won't think anything of the fact that once a month she all of a sudden won't tell them. Sometimes she says where she's going, and sometimes not. It ain't their business.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 29 2008, 08:56 PM)
The whole family still waits to make kiddush till Nechama Dinah comes back from the mikvah let's say at least 30 minutes after tzeit?
How long does Nechama Dina have to spend at the mikvah already?
I guess each family would have to work out the best situation for themselves. I don't remember ever thinking 'hey it's weird that my Mom is not here' on a Friday night so I guess she figured something out (well I also am rather on the naive side). I imagine with smaller kids, it probably makes the most sense for daddy to stay home and if there are older ones, some of the older gals can watch the younger ones. But every situation, family and community is different.
How can someone go to the mikvah during Shabbat? Isn't it against halacha?
After all, swimming and showering on Shabbat are against halacha, right? I thought it was something about wringing out the hair or the towel or something. So you are telling me that swimming is not okay, nor is showering, but it's okay for a woman to take a bath, do all that scrubbing and removing, etc., and go to the mikvah, dry herself with a towel, etc. on Shabbat?
After all, swimming and showering on Shabbat are against halacha, right? I thought it was something about wringing out the hair or the towel or something. So you are telling me that swimming is not okay, nor is showering, but it's okay for a woman to take a bath, do all that scrubbing and removing, etc., and go to the mikvah, dry herself with a towel, etc. on Shabbat?
QUOTE (Shoshi @ Jan 29 2008, 10:49 PM)
How can someone go to the mikvah during Shabbat? Isn't it against halacha?
After all, swimming and showering on Shabbat are against halacha, right? I thought it was something about wringing out the hair or the towel or something. So you are telling me that swimming is not okay, nor is showering, but it's okay for a woman to take a bath, do all that scrubbing and removing, etc., and go to the mikvah, dry herself with a towel, etc. on Shabbat?
After all, swimming and showering on Shabbat are against halacha, right? I thought it was something about wringing out the hair or the towel or something. So you are telling me that swimming is not okay, nor is showering, but it's okay for a woman to take a bath, do all that scrubbing and removing, etc., and go to the mikvah, dry herself with a towel, etc. on Shabbat?
I was wondering the exact same thing.
QUOTE (Shoshi @ Jan 29 2008, 10:49 PM)
How can someone go to the mikvah during Shabbat? Isn't it against halacha?
After all, swimming and showering on Shabbat are against halacha, right? I thought it was something about wringing out the hair or the towel or something. So you are telling me that swimming is not okay, nor is showering, but it's okay for a woman to take a bath, do all that scrubbing and removing, etc., and go to the mikvah, dry herself with a towel, etc. on Shabbat?
After all, swimming and showering on Shabbat are against halacha, right? I thought it was something about wringing out the hair or the towel or something. So you are telling me that swimming is not okay, nor is showering, but it's okay for a woman to take a bath, do all that scrubbing and removing, etc., and go to the mikvah, dry herself with a towel, etc. on Shabbat?
Only the actual dipping is allowed, and there is no issur of that on Shabbos. I'm actually not sure about drying oneself with a towel. I think the prohibition is against wringing out something very wet such as hair, but patting oneself dry is OK.
From the Yoatzot website
QUOTE
Many elements of chafifah (preparations for immersion), are prohibited or restricted on Shabbat and Yom Tov. Therefore, a woman who plans to immerse in the mikveh on Friday night or the night of Yom Tov should complete her preparations at home before she lights candles. This includes bathing, washing and combing hair, and cutting nails. Please see Chafifah on Yom Tov for a discussion of preparation during a two-day Yom Tov or when Shabbat and Yom Tov come one after the other.
At the mikveh, she should wet her body and hair prior to immersing. This prevents hair from floating on top of the water, and ensures that all parts of her body will be in contact with water during her immersion. During the week, women usually wet themselves in the shower just before immersion. But bathing on Shabbat is normally forbidden, particularly in warm water. Furthermore, most baths and showers do not allow for the use of hot water on Shabbat because more water is automatically heated up (this is prohibited on Shabbat but not on Yom Tov). Therefore, rather than taking a cold shower, many women immerse once in the previously-warmed mikveh to wet themselves before the halachically significant immersion. Some mikvaot, however, are equipped with showers designed for use on Shabbat. One should clarify the proper procedure with the mikveh attendant before entering the preparation room.
On Shabbat and Yom Tov, just as on any other day, a woman needs to visually inspect herself for barriers before immersing. If she finds a problem, she should ask the mikveh attendant how to proceed. Due to the laws of Shabbat and Yom Tov, the procedures may be different than on a weekday
At the mikveh, she should wet her body and hair prior to immersing. This prevents hair from floating on top of the water, and ensures that all parts of her body will be in contact with water during her immersion. During the week, women usually wet themselves in the shower just before immersion. But bathing on Shabbat is normally forbidden, particularly in warm water. Furthermore, most baths and showers do not allow for the use of hot water on Shabbat because more water is automatically heated up (this is prohibited on Shabbat but not on Yom Tov). Therefore, rather than taking a cold shower, many women immerse once in the previously-warmed mikveh to wet themselves before the halachically significant immersion. Some mikvaot, however, are equipped with showers designed for use on Shabbat. One should clarify the proper procedure with the mikveh attendant before entering the preparation room.
On Shabbat and Yom Tov, just as on any other day, a woman needs to visually inspect herself for barriers before immersing. If she finds a problem, she should ask the mikveh attendant how to proceed. Due to the laws of Shabbat and Yom Tov, the procedures may be different than on a weekday
what if ND's psak is to dip 20 min, after candlelighting?
Then she'd make it back before shul and tzniut program is finshed, then sender and the kids won't have to wait at all.
Then she'd make it back before shul and tzniut program is finshed, then sender and the kids won't have to wait at all.
how often does a woman go to the mikvah on friday night happen anyways and secondly whats with the names -Nechama Dina and Sender.............
QUOTE (agent220)
but I would choose the waiting
You mean the whole family simply waits for mommy to come home before starting kiddush for anyone?
QUOTE
Not a bad idea if they'll be hungry and kvetchy
I worry about "Sender" being hungry and kvetchy. I heard he gets miserable when his blood sugar gets low.
QUOTE
She went to do a mitzvah. For all the kids know, she is doing bikur cholim or what not. I know someone who b'shitta doesn't tell her kids every where she goes because it's not their business, and they won't think anything of the fact that once a month she all of a sudden won't tell them. Sometimes she says where she's going, and sometimes not. It ain't their business.
That's possibly a separate discussion but as a general rule, although I appreciate Lori's Rule about privacy and I appreciate the concept of parental boundaries especially in these matters, I think there is value is actually being honest with kids at least at a certain age for didactic purposes.
QUOTE (accolade)
How long does Nechama Dina have to spend at the mikvah already?
I don't know. But I don't think 30 minutes is unreasonable - if women start going in to the mikveih pool at tzeit, there could be a line up, and then she still needs to get dressed and walk home...30 minutes after tzeit till she walks in the door doesn't sound too unreasonable.
QUOTE (LTL)
But every situation, family and community is different.
Understood. But maybe people have ideas to share.
QUOTE (Soshi)
How can someone go to the mikvah during Shabbat? Isn't it against halacha?
In theory, yes, in practice, no.
QUOTE (UTMJ)
what if ND's psak is to dip 20 min, after candlelighting?
Like right at sunset?
QUOTE (Menachem E @ Jan 30 2008, 12:02 AM)
how often does a woman go to the mikvah on friday night happen anyways and secondly whats with the names -Nechama Dina and Sender.............
I would think mikvah Friday night happens statistically one in seven months.
QUOTE
whats with the names -Nechama Dina and Sender
What's with Shimon and Reuven always getting into financial disputes and loaning each other money or lending or watching articles in responsa literature?
Question: Let's say the kids can be left alone with either older siblings or a babysitter. Does it make sense for Nechama Dina to go to shul with Sender and straight to mikvah after davening together [obviously he waits around the corner while studiously avoiding eye contact with all the other husbands waiting around the corner] and then to walk home together? Wouldn't that solve several logistical problems?
QUOTE (LoveToLaugh @ Jan 29 2008, 10:59 PM)
Only the actual dipping is allowed, and there is no issur of that on Shabbos. I'm actually not sure about drying oneself with a towel. I think the prohibition is against wringing out something very wet such as hair, but patting oneself dry is OK.
From the Yoatzot website
From the Yoatzot website
Doesn't one normally have to wring out one's wet hair after it's wet?
I am surprised tht mikvah is permitted on Shabbat.
And the mikvah lady is allowed to work on Shabbat? I thought working on Shabbat was forbidden.
If all this is permitted, it would seem that swimming could be permitted on Shabbat too.
QUOTE (Shoshi @ Jan 30 2008, 06:57 AM)
Doesn't one normally have to wring out one's wet hair after it's wet?
I am surprised tht mikvah is permitted on Shabbat.
And the mikvah lady is allowed to work on Shabbat? I thought working on Shabbat was forbidden.
If all this is permitted, it would seem that swimming could be permitted on Shabbat too.
I am surprised tht mikvah is permitted on Shabbat.
And the mikvah lady is allowed to work on Shabbat? I thought working on Shabbat was forbidden.
If all this is permitted, it would seem that swimming could be permitted on Shabbat too.
One doesn't wring out one's hair after mikvah on Friday. It's a problem, but not insurmountable.
As for the mikvah lady working on shabbat, that's the same problem as the babysitter who is watching the kids [unless Nechama Dina is a teacher, and then she can get one of her students to fulfill her requisite chesed hours for free
]. A problem, but not insurmountable.As for the logical conclusion that swimming be permitted, yes, in theory, but not in practice. Mikvah for women is a special case. Although really the logical conclusion is that showering in hot water on yom tov should be permitted...but it doesn't work like that.
QUOTE (Shoshi @ Jan 30 2008, 01:57 PM)
Doesn't one normally have to wring out one's wet hair after it's wet?
No
QUOTE
I am surprised tht mikvah is permitted on Shabbat.
There's no real choice. And as the prohibitions against all of these things are Rabbinic enactments the mitzva of going to the mikeveh at the proper time is given precedence.
QUOTE
And the mikvah lady is allowed to work on Shabbat? I thought working on Shabbat was forbidden.
You can WORK all you want on Shabbos, you aren't allowed to do MELACHA or get paid (there are caveats to this).
QUOTE
If all this is permitted, it would seem that swimming could be permitted on Shabbat too.
Under certain conditions, for Sefardim it is.....
The REAL question is how it is permitted to have HOT water in the Mik on Shabbos.....
How about making that Friday night "kids dinner with Bubby and Zaidy" night?
In general, I think you do whatever makes the situation easier for the woman and usual preferences involving davening with a minyan or when to make kiddush get suspended.
It really depends on the number of kids you are dealing with and their ages. You can come up with scenarios beyond counting. If the kids are young then have the husband just stay home. If the kids are older then have the husband cough a little, mumble something about a cold, and send the kids to shul by themselves.
In general, I think you do whatever makes the situation easier for the woman and usual preferences involving davening with a minyan or when to make kiddush get suspended.
It really depends on the number of kids you are dealing with and their ages. You can come up with scenarios beyond counting. If the kids are young then have the husband just stay home. If the kids are older then have the husband cough a little, mumble something about a cold, and send the kids to shul by themselves.
When we lived in Cleveland, the way they did things was totally different.
You would have dinner with your family, making sure not to eat meat or chicken and then the women would either meet on the various corners in the area or you were given a specific time to come and your husband had to walk with you. the mikva lady would then put the various husbands in different rooms (hoping she remembers which wife ent with which husband). You would come in intervals of 15 minutes or so. The rabbis didn't want women to walk by themselves because it was dangerous. Granted I didn't have any kids yet or I don't know how my husband could walk me.
You would have dinner with your family, making sure not to eat meat or chicken and then the women would either meet on the various corners in the area or you were given a specific time to come and your husband had to walk with you. the mikva lady would then put the various husbands in different rooms (hoping she remembers which wife ent with which husband). You would come in intervals of 15 minutes or so. The rabbis didn't want women to walk by themselves because it was dangerous. Granted I didn't have any kids yet or I don't know how my husband could walk me.
QUOTE (ruthie @ Jan 30 2008, 10:04 AM)
When we lived in Cleveland, the way they did things was totally different.
You would have dinner with your family, making sure not to eat meat or chicken and then the women would either meet on the various corners in the area or you were given a specific time to come and your husband had to walk with you. the mikva lady would then put the various husbands in different rooms
You would have dinner with your family, making sure not to eat meat or chicken and then the women would either meet on the various corners in the area or you were given a specific time to come and your husband had to walk with you. the mikva lady would then put the various husbands in different rooms
What, would it be yichud if they were together??? Granted it might be a bit a uncomfortable though....
"So....what are you guys up to tonight?"
*silence*
the husbands were kept separate, you never saw anyone other than the mikva lady.
QUOTE
Like right at sunset?
yes.
QUOTE
(Menachem E @ Jan 30 2008, 12:02 AM) *
how often does a woman go to the mikvah on friday night happen anyways and secondly whats with the names -Nechama Dina and Sender.............
how often does a woman go to the mikvah on friday night happen anyways and secondly whats with the names -Nechama Dina and Sender.............
QUOTE
I would think mikvah Friday night happens statistically one in seven months.
And sometimes it can happen four months in a row.....And to some women, it just NEVER happens at all.
The worst part (for me anyway) of going to the mikveh Friday night or Yomtov was not having any makeup on the whole shabbos....
Oh and waiting outside the mikveh for the mikveh lady to come and let me in, if she was late, just when the entire shul round the corner disgorged its contents after maariv and walked past me.... I think that's improved with the new Golders Green mikveh. It isn't so public.
What we used to do is.. get a babysitter if none of my kids was old enough to stay with the younger ones. MH would go to shul as usual (It would take an earthquake to make him miss davening) and meet me afterwards to walk me home. I would go along before nacht so as to be ready the minute it was nacht for tevilah. That way the kids barely waited any longer than when they waited for Daddy to come home from shul. MH would daven at the nearest shul to the mikveh and wait for me outside.
Oh and waiting outside the mikveh for the mikveh lady to come and let me in, if she was late, just when the entire shul round the corner disgorged its contents after maariv and walked past me.... I think that's improved with the new Golders Green mikveh. It isn't so public.
What we used to do is.. get a babysitter if none of my kids was old enough to stay with the younger ones. MH would go to shul as usual (It would take an earthquake to make him miss davening) and meet me afterwards to walk me home. I would go along before nacht so as to be ready the minute it was nacht for tevilah. That way the kids barely waited any longer than when they waited for Daddy to come home from shul. MH would daven at the nearest shul to the mikveh and wait for me outside.
QUOTE (lyric @ Jan 30 2008, 10:06 AM)
What we used to do is.. get a babysitter if none of my kids was old enough to stay with the younger ones. MH would go to shul as usual (It would take an earthquake to make him miss davening) and meet me afterwards to walk me home. I would go along before nacht so as to be ready the minute it was nacht for tevilah. That way the kids barely waited any longer than when they waited for Daddy to come home from shul. MH would daven at the nearest shul to the mikveh and wait for me outside.
Did they find it odd that a babysitter came on Shabbos?
I babysat quite a few times on Friday night, I didn't think much about it until I was engaged.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 30 2008, 06:52 AM)
I would think mikvah Friday night happens statistically one in seven months.
I'd have thought so too, but suprising how many women there are on a motzei shbs and very few on a friday night.
QUOTE (Thingymijig @ Jan 30 2008, 12:44 PM)
I'd have thought so too, but suprising how many women there are on a motzei shbs and very few on a friday night.
Yes, and we have had a thread or two about that phenomenon. I suspect that people either delay mikvah, or don't try very hard for a good hefsek taharah if mikvah will be on a Friday...there are a few explanations for that phenomenon. So too with mikvah being really busy on motza'ei Yom Tov.
I have heard some communities b'shitta do not do a HT on Friday night if not "necessary". For instance, if it's postpartum, they wait till M"S since Friday night mikvah is only if it's the right time. Makes no sense to me, but that's what I have heard.
Also kallos don't go then.
And people who are too far, etc. etc. (not that they shouldn't ask a shaila...)
Also kallos don't go then.
And people who are too far, etc. etc. (not that they shouldn't ask a shaila...)
QUOTE (FYI @ Jan 30 2008, 04:16 PM)
Did they find it odd that a babysitter came on Shabbos?
If they did, they never said. TBH I think as they got older they probably guessed. The no makeup thing was a dead giveaway.
QUOTE (agent220 @ Jan 30 2008, 12:54 PM)
I have heard some communities b'shitta do not do a HT on Friday night if not "necessary". For instance, if it's postpartum, they wait till M"S since Friday night mikvah is only if it's the right time. Makes no sense to me, but that's what I have heard.
Also kallos don't go then.
And people who are too far, etc. etc. (not that they shouldn't ask a shaila...)
Also kallos don't go then.
And people who are too far, etc. etc. (not that they shouldn't ask a shaila...)
What is a not necessary hefsek taharah???
The other thing is, women who self regulate their menstrual cycles - for example, if let's say 30% of Orthodox women are taking oral contraceptives [I pulled that number out of the air; I have no idea what the real figures are], then the remaining 70% of women would have their mikvah nights evenly distributed across the 7 days of the week, but I assume the 30% on the pill would time their packs such that mikvah would not be on Friday nights, as far as they are able.
QUOTE (Ruthie)
In Cleveland...
At my (dysfunctional) shul they do almost the opposite: The parking for the mikvah is such that almost every car driving into the parking lot goes right by all the minivans with the RUTHIE and SRH DRZL vanity plates. I'm surprised the shul doesn't just go ahead and put the names in the shul bulletin.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 30 2008, 02:25 PM)
What is a not necessary hefsek taharah???
Apparently, if it's not a regular monthly one, some hold that postpartum can be done whenever one feels comfortable (this is way beyond me and you're asking the wrong person, but I have definitely heard this shitta for whatever it's worth) and therefore even if she could technically do it on Friday night, she should wait till M"S to avoid a Friday night mikvah.
I don't understand any of it, sorry.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 30 2008, 09:48 AM)
Yes, and we have had a thread or two about that phenomenon. I suspect that people either delay mikvah, or don't try very hard for a good hefsek taharah if mikvah will be on a Friday...there are a few explanations for that phenomenon. So too with mikvah being really busy on motza'ei Yom Tov.
I suspect there is a lot of this going on.
QUOTE (agent220 @ Jan 30 2008, 12:54 PM)
I have heard some communities b'shitta do not do a HT on Friday night if not "necessary". For instance, if it's postpartum, they wait till M"S since Friday night mikvah is only if it's the right time. Makes no sense to me, but that's what I have heard.
Also kallos don't go then.
And people who are too far, etc. etc. (not that they shouldn't ask a shaila...)
Also kallos don't go then.
And people who are too far, etc. etc. (not that they shouldn't ask a shaila...)
This is what my kallah teacher taught me, but I have no idea if that's what my rav would say to do or not do. I relearned a lot of THM after getting married.
Maybe I'll ask him, just for fun, to see how things are done around here.
QUOTE (agent220 @ Jan 30 2008, 02:31 PM)
Apparently, if it's not a regular monthly one, some hold that postpartum can be done whenever one feels comfortable (this is way beyond me and you're asking the wrong person, but I have definitely heard this shitta for whatever it's worth) and therefore even if she could technically do it on Friday night, she should wait till M"S to avoid a Friday night mikvah.
I don't understand any of it, sorry.
I don't understand any of it, sorry.
A postpartum HT is much different than a regular HT. A regular HT must be done on day 5. If you don't try hard enough, is a separate question. As far as I remember, there is no time regulation on when to do a postpartum HT, so there is more leeway in doing it on a day that won't make mikvah night a Shabbos or Yom Tov.
(Assuming that one doesn't live too far from a mikveh, is going on a Friday night so awful that you would rather push it off, or "push it off"?)
QUOTE (pleats @ Jan 30 2008, 09:29 PM)
(Assuming that one doesn't live too far from a mikveh, is going on a Friday night so awful that you would rather push it off, or "push it off"?)
The basis for the shitta I mentioned was that since it could have halachic implications (as Shoshi alluded to), "better" to avoid them. I do not believe my rav holds like this, but I never thought of asking, as I never heard of such a shitta until recently.
For others, I think there could be reasons like not wearing makeup (hard for me to understand), having to make arrangements, and if it involves others, (gasp) they might know what you are doing, having to wait to eat, having to make long preparations erev shabbos, etc.
I can't pretend to know what for others awful is, but conceivably, I guess, these issues might bother someone enough.
QUOTE (pleats @ Jan 30 2008, 09:29 PM)
(Assuming that one doesn't live too far from a mikveh, is going on a Friday night so awful that you would rather push it off, or "push it off"?)
Going to the mikvah on Friday not has halachic issues involved, so if you can push it off, in accordance with halacha, then many say it is better to push it off.
QUOTE (cynic @ Jan 30 2008, 09:45 PM)
Going to the mikvah on Friday not has halachic issues involved, so if you can push it off, in accordance with halacha, then many say it is better to push it off.
I'm still not understanding this. What's the difference between post partum and post mestruation? Why is the former a situation in which mikvah can or even should be delayed as opposed to post menstruation? I keep on hearing on h.com how it's such a terrible sin to delay mikvah and the efforts women go through for a timely mikvah, so why is it suddenly ok to push off mikvah post partum because of halachic concerns of a Friday night mikvah but not a post menstruation mikvah visit?
True, the five day thing is different post partum because there are no semen issues, but because of that suddenly the Friday night mikvah is halachically problematic enough to trump a timely mikvah?
Either a Friday night mikvah is halachically problematic or it isn't, and if it is, why is a post mesntruation mikvah different, and if it isn't, why is a post partum mikvkah different?
Why is a post partum mikvah something that is considered that can be pushed off?
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 31 2008, 06:29 AM)
Why is a post partum mikvah something that is considered that can be pushed off?
Well one reason women are encouraged to go on time to begin with is because mikvah nights coincide with a woman's most fertile time in many cases. That is almost never true post partum. (Yes I am making that up but it makes sense doesn't it?)
QUOTE (brianna @ Jan 31 2008, 08:18 AM)
Well one reason women are encouraged to go on time to begin with is because mikvah nights coincide with a woman's most fertile time in many cases. That is almost never true post partum. (Yes I am making that up but it makes sense doesn't it?)
Possibly. I had thought of that, that the reason we don't push off tevilah is that we don't want to play God with a possible conception, something that isn't as big an issue post-partum. However, as the father of two kids born within the same calendar year, I can attest that indeed post partum conceptions occur.
In any event, I called a rav who would know about this issue [delaying mikvah post partum if it would have been on a Friday night] and left a message and I'm waiting to hear back.
QUOTE (melech @ Jan 31 2008, 06:29 AM)
I'm still not understanding this. What's the difference between post partum and post mestruation? Why is the former a situation in which mikvah can or even should be delayed as opposed to post menstruation? I keep on hearing on h.com how it's such a terrible sin to delay mikvah and the efforts women go through for a timely mikvah, so why is it suddenly ok to push off mikvah post partum because of halachic concerns of a Friday night mikvah but not a post menstruation mikvah visit?
True, the five day thing is different post partum because there are no semen issues, but because of that suddenly the Friday night mikvah is halachically problematic enough to trump a timely mikvah?
Either a Friday night mikvah is halachically problematic or it isn't, and if it is, why is a post mesntruation mikvah different, and if it isn't, why is a post partum mikvkah different?
Why is a post partum mikvah something that is considered that can be pushed off?
True, the five day thing is different post partum because there are no semen issues, but because of that suddenly the Friday night mikvah is halachically problematic enough to trump a timely mikvah?
Either a Friday night mikvah is halachically problematic or it isn't, and if it is, why is a post mesntruation mikvah different, and if it isn't, why is a post partum mikvkah different?
Why is a post partum mikvah something that is considered that can be pushed off?
I discussed this last night with my husband, and he basically said the same thing. He said we hold there is absolutely no problem with toiveling Friday night, and it's not more preferable one doesn't if she couldn't have come earlier. He saw no difference between postpartum and regular monthly visit, but I don't think that was based on anything other than his feelings on the matter.
Assuming what Brianna and you are saying after this is a valid reason, I guess hormonal pills shouldn't be different.
BTW, no hashkafa teachers on THM would ever say such a thing from what I've heard. It's all about no delaying mikvah, such a big mitzvah to go on Friday night, etc.
QUOTE (agent220 @ Jan 31 2008, 09:57 AM)
BTW, no hashkafa teachers on THM would ever say such a thing from what I've heard.
Yet three posters of the torah true variety [I counted quickly, give or take one or two] all seemed to have heard it.
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