Get it all at Failed Messiah
(and here)

The Messianic Failure is metame bmaga umassa.

i was at my friend for shabbos and another guest said something like "some charedim are wearing burqas in israel now". i dismissed it, saying it's impossible.

before i faint (i read some of the stuff only, from the first link), please, please tell me these women don't exist.

They exist [apparently]. While some decry the slippery slope to the Left, there is also a slippery slope to the Right, and it isn't more pretty at the bottom, just another way to get there.

that is so scary!

Elana, what do you think is worse - upper arms with more than a tefach exposed from the elbow, or veiled women?

This is a much better link than the Failed Messiah one.

i thought about it after your previous post. i say the latter.

i'm still under a major shock. this is very distressing. does anyone here know one of these women personally? why are the rabbonim quiet?

A choice between chumra and kulah?

9

This is very frightening. It is frightening for the present that produces people who feel that to be close to Hashem they must act in such a manner. It is frightening for the futures of this group, of its children, and of the people it might influence.

It's not a chumra at all.

Why not?

9

When I showed this to Dh he said it looks like nonsense, if they are so 'frum' how are there pictures of them and why did they agree to the interview....

Is washing your hands a million times chumra? What about drying it for five minutes? Davening for a day?

It is 50 crazy women, they are already being given far too much attention.......

True, but they are the product of a society.
Anyway, who cares about a million average strangers?

Depends.
You didnt answer the question.

9

א איד ענטפערט מיט א פראגע.

Because you can't explain your answer?

9

אזוי מיינסטו, הא?

I don't think what these burqa women are doing is that much different from the examples above, except in magnitude.

How would you define a chumra?

9

The JC had an interesting take on it--that this is an outgrowth of a culture that promotes "tzniut" above all else. Ultimately you get people who decide, if this is my role in life, I'll take it to the highest level.

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m1...9&ATypeId=1

Agreed 100%

It's hard for me to define, but I know that what these women are doing is not chumra.

Makes sense. Everyone wants to excel in something.

How exactly do you know that without knowing what a chumra is?

9

What I find interesting isn't that people do it -- after all, there is no question that if modesty is defined by the percentage of flesh concealed, then indeed burqas and multi-layered bags are far more modest than regular frum clothes -- it's the extreme negative reaction of some people in the charedi community to this.

I think the reaction of most people who are not frum is "what's the big deal, it's just a small step beyond what the charedim do anyway". It's the charedim that -- based on the blog posts and h.com posts -- seem aghast at this.

You're right. It's ironic on several levels. But don't forget R. Falk holds that long skirts [eg. to the ankle] are less tzenu'ot than shorter skirts [beyond 4-6 inches from the knee, but shorter than ankle length]. Unless it's at a wedding, apparently.
As for Rightists being aghast, that's because they a peering through the looking glass. And because the Rightists are not much different than the Leftists.

never heard that expression. ?

A keen intuition is not without value.

Not as valuable as actually knowing.

9

Anyone can acquire information, but it's hard to acquire good intuition.

Sure it is. Very often, knowledge is intuition with defined parameters.
Take, for example, the definition of a kezayis. Once upon a time, people didn't need little kezayis books to tell them how much matzah to eat. They measured it intuitively. However, not everyone has this intuition, so it eventually became standardized to 3.0734π fluid ounces, or whatever. The point is that knowledge often comes about due to the need to define intuition.

Maybe, but usually if you have information you don't need intuition. Intuition is when you lack information and have to guess.

9

No. The shiur is a kizayis. Thats that the rabbis said and no matter how much intuition you have you can't change that.

9

Were kezeysim just waiting for more precise measurements and charts to be invented?

No. If you know the exact shiur than what else do you need?

9

"Exact shiur" implies the need for weights and measurements. "Like an olive" implies "no exact shiur" and also "no need for weights and measurements."

"Like an olive" IS a measurement.

9

I meant measuring guides. My bad.

And an olive isnt a measuring guide?

9

I know you have to promote your agenda, but at least do it in a way that is less ridiculously unbalanced. This burqa woman is the equivalant of a woman coming to shul in a bikini, or frum nudists, NOT the short-sleeved MO girl (whose chareidi equivalant is probably the falk-skirt-length girl).

An olive isn't a chart or a measuring cup.

Interesting. The burka people are the same as being naked. No wonder so many people are aghast.

Yeah, I didn't get that either.

Its something to measure it too. Why are you limited to cups and charts? Before the invention of charts and measuring cups they had olives.

9

Good point. I wonder how many of them there are. It reminds me of the Neturei Karta...there's like 12 of them, but they make enough noise.


Maybe because it makes them look bad?

We still have olives.

Kizayis means what?

9

Comparable to an olive, not comparable to a piece of paper with diagrams or a weight to place on a scale.