In another thread it was asked what women get out of a women's megillah reading.

First, in terms of the women who actually lein. I daven in a youth minyan on shabbat where the boys lein. The boys volunteer to lein and presumably they get something out of it. I assume that the women who want to lein megillah have the same motivations as men who volunteer to lein torah.

As for the participants, it's empowering to see that women can indeed have a voice, both literally and figuratively, that their avodah in the synagogue doesn't consist of simply being observers of the men on the other side of the mechitzah. It's also an issue of role models - it's inspiring for women, young ladies, and girls to see women leining and it gives them something to strive for. If men had to come to shul and could never fully participate and were just observers of the women leading services, I would venture to guess that many men would quickly lose interest in continued participation in shul-based services.

I once had a conversation with an Outreaching rabbi. It was while I was saying kaddish and I was telling him how meaningful the kaddish year is for men and it's too bad the women have almost nothing during their year of aveilut. For men, there is a true sense of commoraderie when you come to shul every day, and the same men are there, and they wish you that the neshamah should have an aliyah when you daven from the amud, and it's a real opportunity for men to participate in shul and really feel part of a community, and when you're travelling to do the mesirut nefesh to make sure you'll have a minyan, or to leave work early...it's hard to explain, but the year of saying kaddish is incredibly inspiring and moving. But the women don't have this at all. At most, they don't listen to music, or they get their friends or daughters to wear their new outfits first, or they help serve something at a simchah to get around the problems of aveilut. But they totally don't have that entire shul thing. So the Outreaching rabbi told me, well, they can bake challah le-ilui nishmat the departed. Big deal. It's so totally not the same thing. Actually participating in synagogue services and rituals and so totally different than being an observer. Saying kaddish is so totally different than baking challah. I can really understand how it's meaningful for women to actually lein megillah, or to see other women leining it. It's really empowering, and inspirational. It allows them to take ownership of the ritual rather than being appendages. Now this might not be for everybody, but for many, it's very important. Probably for many of the same reasons that women come to shul to daven even when they have no obligation to daven in a minyan. They do it for a variety of reasons, and for many of the same reasons, women want to not only daven in shul, but participate more fully.

There. That's a start.

Excellent post. Thanks melech.

Okay. I'm getting it a little bit, but the problem is it's too limited. So they get to do their once-a-year leining...and then what? Isn't that frustrating, to get in the door a little tiny bit, but then not to be able to go any further? Or are they working on taking it further, and just going one step at a time?

In all 3 Modern Orthodox shuls in my area there is a women's tefillah group that meets a few times a month. So that's more often than once a year. Women also deliver dvar torahs, and get to hold the Torah when it's paraded around. Yay. But of course it is limited. Orthodoxy is sexist. Right-wing is proudly sexist, and MO is apologetically sexist.

Right, what Moshi said. Taken in isolation, megillah is one day out of the year and in isolation wouldn't be too important. But it's part of a constellation of rituals that push the envelope. They read megillah, they say kaddish in shul, they read the ketubah, there are tefillah groups, women give shiurim, they say hamotzi at the table, etc etc etc.
Any one of these things isn't that significant. Do a bunch of them, and already the women can feel a difference.

Or here's another one - my sister in law buried her father two weeks ago. And she shoveled the dirt. For her, that was very, very powerful. The point is to find the opportunities that don't violate halachah. Now to someone else, big deal, that's not important to them. But to those for whom it is, why deny them.

You're assuming that women have the exact same emotional needs as a man does when it comes to aveilus for example. Men and women's perspectives differ greatly when it comes just about everything. What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander. Besides, even if it is an empowering experience, that is not necessarily healthy for the women on a subconscious level.

That's fine, but let the women themselves decide what their own emotional needs are instead of men dictating to them and telling them that their desire to do X Y or Z is insincere.
And that's pretty sexist to say you as a man know what's best for women on a subconscious level.

I think that the things Melech is writing about are not for all women. But for those of them that it is useful, it could be a good thing.


Amen.

That's right. My wife for instance has no desire whatsoever to go to that women's megillah I wrote about or to say hamotzi at the shabbat table or to go to those women's prayer groups. But for those for whom it's a tool to enhancing their sincere avodah, guzenteheit.

On the other hand, one of my daughters likes to say hamotzi at the shabbat table for everyone. I assume for the same reasons boys like to say kiddush at the shabbat table.

Often we are not the best a gaging what is in fact the best for us.Secondly I was not saying I as a man know what's best for women. I trust that if it were truly a positive thing for women,it would have been instituted by the Torah for them.
Let me explain using a Dvar Torah I read in the name of Rav Henoch Lebowitz shlita.
When the Torah tells us about the fines a thief has to pay,it is determined based on what animal was stolen.Four times for the theft of a sheep and five times for the theft of a cow.Chazal explain the discrepancy.The thief experiences some level of humiliation by having to carry the sheep away,versus the cow thief who just leads the animal and it walks on its own. Now,if you were to ask any thief if he feels humiliated by what he did,he would probably tell you its nonsense. He is very happy and thrilled with that evening's take.Humiliation is the furthest feeling from his consciousness. Yet Chazal inform us that Hashem knows how he created man and whether he perceives it or not, he was humiliated. For that suffering he is fined 20% less. There are other examples of this concept illustrated elsewhere in the parshah. But the message is the same. G-d knows what is best for us on both the conscious and subconscious levels of our psyches and souls.Therefore what is best for us is prescribed by the Torah. Deviating from this prescription effects us,if even on the subconscious level.So while these women may feel that doing these things are important for their emotional needs,I'm not so sure they know better than G-d.

I wonder why women feel it's necessary to "be like the boys" why can't they be happy with what Hashem has given them and their role in frum society.
How many men out there would really enjoy giving birth and going to the mikva once a month and dressing in stockings and long sleeves in 100 degree weather?
I am very happy and satisfied with the role I play in society. I don't feel the need to always do what the men so. I don't believe I am inferior or a second class citizen in any way.
just my opinion.

Because:

1. Leiening the megillah, or a sefer Torah or leading tefillos at shul is not a per-se masculine activity, so women who want to do them have the same motivations than men who want to do them.
2. The role women have in frum society is so not "what Hashem has given them". Don't blame God for ingrained, institutionalized sexism.
3. Some women like to "do shots, drink beer and belch without being embarrassed, watch football"™... and leien the megillah  like the guys.
Quite a few. Ever heard of womb envy?
Most women don't enjoy that so it's not proof of anything.
Good for you! but you don't speak for all women.

Just because I don't need certain tools to enhance my own avodah doesn't mean that someone else who does (within the context of halacha) is wrong for using them.

You are happy with the the current role of women in frum society. Would you have been happy had you been denied the ability to read and write? Because several generations ago, that would have been your role. So sure you're happy now, now that you have the comforts that emancipation of women has afforded you. Would you be happy if suddenly your right to vote and your right to attend school were taken away. So you can be a bigshot now and say, "I'm happy with my role", but you would not have been happy with the role of your female ancestors.
The mere fact that you attend shul on a weekly basis [assuming you do] - spitting on tradition. Shuls never had an ezrat nashim in Europe (other than the yamim noraim) and you won't find a single reference to an ezrat nashim in all of shulchan aruch. Do your daughters attend a bat mitzvah program of any sort? Spitting on tradition. Do your daughters attend school? Spitting on tradition. So fine, be a big shot and say how you're happy with your role. But that's only because the role of women, even among the Rightists, has changed.
"I don't feel the need to always do what the men do". Fine. Give up your right to vote. Take your daughters out of school. Take them out of any bat mitzvah program. Stop going to shul to daven except on the yamim noraim. The reality is that you do indeed have needs to imitate men, it's just that you draw your own personal lines in the sand in a different place.

Secondly, even if you don't have any desire to enhance your avodah, others do.

Did God say that women can't say hamotzi, that women can't read a ketubah, that women can't lein megillah? Are you claiming the word of the Rightists is synonymous with the Word of God???
If those things are within halachah, then they are not violating God's words. If they are against halachah, then it's wrong. So the question is how far the halachic envelope can be pushed. But to assert that anything not Rightist is against the word of God, that's patently absurd. How on earth do you know what God wants? He wants us to follow halachah. The criteria for what's acceptable or not should be whether it violates halachah or not, not whether it satisfies the emotional needs of the Rightists or not.

I never claimed anything non Rightist is against the word of G-d, and I would agree to suggest that is indeed patently absurd..

How do you know the emotional needs of these women is against the word of God?

I never claimed that it is.All I said was that just because they feel the need doesn't make them the experts of what is in their best interest.

Whoa. I never said other women shouldn't lein megillah.If that is how it sounded I'm sorry. I don't feel the need for it and I am trying to understand what the need is.
That said, I might have been fine with life generations ago if that is how life was then. (If you ask my husband he would tell you that I was born in the wrong generation.)
You're right I do benefit from women's lib as do my daughters, but that said, I don't want my daughters leining the megilla.

That's right. Which is why any of these things need rabbinic sanction. But there are plenty of MO rabbis who sanction women saying hamotzi and women leining megillah and women reading a ketubah etc etc etc

Agreed. I would just add the caveat,that the spirit of the law,not just the letter of it should be considered as well.

Fair enough, but that's in the eye of the beholder. A Rightist is obviously going to say that just about anything a Leftist want to do, even if it's within halachic parameters, is beyond the spirit of the law. It's a powerful weapon.
Take for instance any of these examples: women leining megillah, saying hamotzi for the family, giving divrei torah to mixed gender audiences, and women reading the ketubah.
All the Rightists have to say is "It's not in the spirit of the law".
But the arbiter should be a Leftist for Leftists.

I'll give you an example though that speaks to this issue. There are a number of teshuvot in the Bnei Banim {R. Henkin} where he addresses issues and halachically it's fine, according to the letter of the law, but in the closing paragraphs he has a habit of saying, but we don't do it.
So indeed, even among the MO, the concept exists that the spirit of the law should be considered as well.
Did you doubt that? Is your perception that the MO ignore the spirit of the law willy nilly? Because they don't. What they do do, however, is if the halachah is permissive, then they weigh the spirit of the law against current needs.
I'll give you a Rightist example: the BY school system. Clearly against the spirit of the law since until that time formal schools didn't exist for girls. So you could argue, it's not halachically assur since talmud and other forbidden studies aren't being taught, but it's clearly against the spirit of the law. Big deal. The rabbis of the time still endorsed it because it was necessary because of various social reasons.

In both examples, Torah giants are weighing in on the decisions. These issues have very far reaching implications and consequences. Thus anyone on either side of the Orthodox spectrum has to appreciate and understand that how these psakim will affect the future of Klal Yisrael have to be a considerable part of the decision.Therefore not just any Rabbi with s'michah should be issuing their p'sakim.Deference should be given to the Rabbinical leadership.The Gedolim of each respective camp.

I've already pointed out that RAL, who is clearly a MO "gadol" if such a thing exists, allows women to lein megilla most years

I thinks its very sad that such a question exists.

Not really. There are MO Rabbonim who are arbiters of halacha and poskim of the first order, such as Rav Schachter, etc. But the word "gadol" in today's parlance implies a social position that does not exist in the MO world. No one - not even their talmidim - treats RAL or RHS with the sort of reverence that people give to Rightist Rabbis of similar stature. No one walks out of their presence backwards. No one makes a point of visiting them to get a bracha except in unsual circumstances. No one cares what they think about politics or business ventures. I've asked RHS for personal advice before, but that's because he's a person whose opinion I respect, and in the end I didn't even listen to his advice.

Was Rav Solovetichik a Gadol? In some sensem surely, but to be fair in his lifetime Gadol worship hadn't reached its current level, and so the difference between how MO and the Right treat their leaders was not as obvious. I don't think people even treated Rav Moshe like they treat Rav Elyashiv. There are MO Rabbis who are great Rabbis. But I think on the whole that it's wonderful that we don't have the rightist institution of Gedolim per se.

Yes, and also the same motivations as women who lein torah.

I agree

Perhaps Orthodox women don't have it at all, but lots of non-Orthodox women certainly do. My grandmother, mother and aunts all said kaddish daily and like you mention found a true sense of camaraderie. It's too bad Orthodox women have nothing comparable.

Exactly, and in ways far beyond what you have suggested in this thread.

how many women out there really enjoy all that?

Are opponents of such things opposed because it is bad for these women or because it is bad for Orthodox Judaism, in their view?

Nooch: if it makes you feel any better, if a man and a woman both daven with a minyan three times a day (for example) the man will get more sachar because he's required to do so and she's not.

I also think you don't understand the dynamics of women's lives. For example: a man and woman go to work. The man gets to break up his day by going to mincha and associating with other frum men. A woman says mincha alone in her little office. It can feel isolating on so many levels. Even worse: the man goes to work and the woman stays home with the kids. Talk about the Feminine Mystique.

I'm sure it varies from person to person.
However, if it is bad for these women then in turn isn't also bad for Orthodoxy as well?


Since when was this about making me feel better?

Why is this worse? If anything it is ideal!

I can hear that. Makes sense. To be honest, when Spot posted that thread last week about passing the Torah through the women's section, I thought "that would be nice" (although I'd be terrified to hold it).


Why haven't women been involved with that until now? Shoveling the dirt has halachic implications? I can understand why that was very powerful for her.


I don't know why, but I find this offensive.


Why is that okay? Just like in the hierarchy, a woman bentches licht even if her fifteen year old son likes to do it, a man is higher up in the hierarchy of making hamotzi for everyone.


Why don't they? Isn't any great, holy, older person supposed to be treated with reverence? [I didn't know people walk out of gedolim backwards. Are you sure about that?]


I doubt that's true. The world had a lot more respect fifty years ago, not less.

You're the one with the problem. I thought I'd point out that Hashem knows all about this stuff and will deal with people accordingly. He doesn't need you to suggest to us (i.e., women) that we don't know what's best for ourselves.

Oh, and PS, over the years, women have taken on plenty of things that they weren't required to do; this is hardly a new phenomenon. Davening mincha is the first thing that comes to mind.


You may see it as the ideal, but, again, you have no idea how isolating it can be, especially in the winter months when you can't just take a walk to the park and meet up with other mothers there.

I have no idea. "It's not done". Maybe Member X will say it's bad for women emotionally or unhealthy unconciously even if they don't realize it or it's against some sort of spirit of some sort of law. Maybe Member Y will say how she's happy with her roll in life as a Jewish woman and she doesn't need to do things men have traditionally done.




Hamotzi and candle lighting are two totally different things. Where is hamotzi "the woman's mitzvah"? When did men take ownership of a berachah rishonah on food? Why is a man higher up in the hierarchy of making hamotzi than anyone else? A woman's obligation, and therefore her ability to be motzee anyone else who is also eating, is exactly the same as a man's obligations. To say a man is higher up in the hierarchy is spitting on Chazal.
If a woman were less obligated, then a man would be higher up. But she isn't in this case.
If a son in a home can make hamotzi for everyone, then so can a daugher. They are exactly 100% equal in their hamotzi obligations.

Oh. I guess I was clumping together all things that you're motzee others for. Havdalah would be different, wouldn't it? I've had this situation when I'm eating seudas shlishis with my little brother and I thought I'm supposed to give it to him to make hamotzi for me. I'm going to look into this more. (Out of curiosity; I'm still going to give it to him because it probably makes him feel good and I couldn't care less.)

First of all, I think the kaddish example is a good one, thanks melech.

I will now share a thought that I first used (with the expected poor results) in a college feminism course:

Ahem.

Many out there advocate women being able to choose how to live their lives and control their own destinies. However, this is meaningless unless someone (like, perhaps ruthie) can choose to live a traditionally female role. If all women are forced to leave these roles and become "empowered" and take advantage of traditionally male roles, that's just as unempowering as forcing all women to be 1950s housewives. (This is where the prof cut me off and I was, for a brief moment, in fear of my life.)

The converse also applies. If I, or melech's wife, or ruthie (sorry to pick on you again) would all choose to not lein megillah, that's fine. But, why should we get to make the choice for all women?

(Yes, havdalah is arguably different, although probably not. But it's a "depends whom you ask" situation. If you hold that women have to recite havdalah d'orayta, as many, many poskim do, then women can be motzee'ot men, although there's a technical problem with the birkat ha-ner...so yes, havdalah is different.)


Why is it that you assume only a man can be motzi a woman but not the other way around for things where they have an equal obligation? Where do you get that from? Why can't you make hamotzi for your little brother?

As for him making hamotzi making him feel good...you just proved my point in this thread. Doing ritual things makes people feel good. And that's why my daughter makes hamotzi - it makes her feel good. What's the difference between letting your brother do it for you, and me letting my daughter do it for me or my sons letting their sister do it for them???

It's the OPS's fault. Because I never thought about it.


Right. I know I did. [I was actually going to write that it makes him feel manly, but I didn't think you'd take too well to that.] The only difference is that you're the father, so it's a very humble thing of you to let your daughter "conduct" the Shabbos meal. I'm reminded of when I spent Shabbos by R' Avigdor Nebenzahl's house in Israel, and his son-in-law did all the motzee things (kiddush, challah), and I found that so impressive. He doesn't even sit at the head of the table.

Uhh no. I don't have a problem. Clearly its these women with the problem.

That is such a stupid statement on so many levels,I'll just leave it be.

Therefore what?


I know exactly how it feels. I've personally experienced it. If isolation is your concern,arrange a play date.

Interesting...I had a pesach seder once at R. Nebenzahl's....I remember that his kids all had different minhagim than he [eg. types of matzah]


Anyway, you raise a different issue, one of tzniut and kavod. Saying a man is on a higher level and therefore should be making hamotzi for women, even a younger brother for an older sister - I totally reject that as baseless.
On the other hand, if you say there's a tzniut factor or a kavod factor, that's a totally different issue and perhaps legitimate. Likely a Rightist would have a different spin than a Leftist.

"respect" and "worship" are not quite the same.

Really? That's interesting. I wonder why.


It's not about a man being on a higher level, I just thought that was halachically what I was supposed to do.

Okay. The point of this thread is seeping into my brain. I get it. Thank you. Now what?

[I'm thinking about the fact that it must be very exciting for little brother, now that he's bar mitzva, to do these things. And I'm thinking that when a girl becomes bas mitzvah, what does she get? She gets punished for her aveiros. How exciting. I'm trying to remember if I was excited by my bas mitzvah...]

Cop-out non-answer.

(At least the first sentence was a bit of an answer.)

Maybe hashkafically, but not halachically.


...and hence, at least in my family, she gets to do some of the things your excited brother gets to do...like make hamotzi.





Now what? I have no idea. How about: Now you understand a little bit more where the MO are coming from just like h.com has enabled me to understand a little bit more where the Rightists are coming from on various issues?

Why hashkafically?


Okay. Thank you for your explanations and patience.

Because of the tznius and kavod issues. I can imagine Rightists thinking it's not 'appropriate' for a woman to make hamotzi for men, even if they are family members. "It's not done".

They are greatly respected, but not ritualistically so.

Some people absolutely do walk out backwards from roshei yeshiva. And most yeshivish people speak to their Rebbeim in the 3rd person ("Can I get the Rebbe a drink?"). You see that on occasion with the very right wing of MO who picked it up from yeshivish people, but it's unusual - much more common is to use the word "Rebbe" as a title ("Rebbe, can I get you a drink?") There are 100 other little ritualistic ways which yeshivish people use to show respect that the MO simply do not use.

It's not just in these little tics though. I know people who go to Rav Elyashiv's shiur even though they don't speak Yiddish, because they just want to see him. I turned down an invitation to do tag along - I can't see the point. No one comes to RHS or RAL to "see" them - they come to hear shiurim or to ask questions, but not just to "watch" a great person. Taken to the extreme on the chassidish end is the notion of shirayim, which is possible the exact antithesis of the MO attitude to their leaders.

You have to realize that this isn't entirely a decision of the laity in either case - the leaders themselves set the tone. When I was in a yeshivish high school, the Rebbeim insisted on the 3rd person thing and some other similar practices because "it's not for our kavod but so that you develop the correct kavod haTorah." In contrast, one of RHS's constant refrains is the need for even a Rav to be a "normal" person. RHS and RAL are extremely approachable - you can just walk up to them and ask a question. No one has "yirah" of them, just "kavod" for them.

It's also much more acceptable to critically analyze what they say. In the yeshivish world, a pronouncement by a Gadol has a great more weight - if Rav Elyashiv said women can't be presidents of shuls (not that he has; I can't imagine he's even considered the possibility since it's so foreign to his worldview) then that would end the question. The fact that RHS has said so does not end the conversation, even among his Talmidim. This is something that MO really owes to RJBS, who insisted that his students be independent of him except in certain key issues which he felt were inviolate. Despite being a talmid of RHS I can openly tell you that I don't understand his position on women as shul presidents - and that I think it's a policy decision dressed up as halacha. I don't think that's disrespectful - he's still my Rebbe.






Yup. And anyways, every generation says the last generation had more respect. Did the generation that came of age in the 60's have more respect for authority than today? Probably the reverse.

That's what I thought you meant. I don't see why it's not tznius. It's me and him at the table! And kavod? If anything, he should be giving me kavod because I'm much older than him. It would be nice to say that I'm giving up on my kavod (character development) for him, but it's not true. In any case, I think I might ask some yeshivish people who know halacha for their reaction to this. I'll report back.


Okay. I hear you.

[You went to a yeshivish high school? ] I don't buy the bolded line. I think a parent can say such a thing, but I have a hard time believing it from a rebbi.


Right. Look at the conversations on yeshivaworld.com after they posted about R' Ahron Schechter and the sheitel store business (maybe better not to look actually). Some people questioned his position, and a bunch of others jumped down their throats, how dare they question R' Ahron Schechter. It's interesting how we can dissect Dovid Hamelech, but we can't dissect any of the current "holy people."

[He said women can't or can be presidents of shuls? Why is that a halachic decision?]

If there are no kavod or tzniut issues, then why can I assume the answer to, "Have you ever heard of a sister make hamotzi for a brother in a Rightist family" is no?
I'm gonna guess it harms Orthodox Judaism and makes her mentally unhealthy.



It's an Iggerot Moshe. The issue is that women can't be in positions of authority.

Indeed.