Here's the scenario: Two jewish men on an airplane- one dressed in a black hat etc and the other in jeans and a velvet kippa. The black hatter approaches the other and says, "my seat is over there beside that woman-do you mind changing seats with me?"
The jean wearer is insulted and says: "I don't understand, I'm just as frum as you!"
What say you on this topic?

i'm not a man, but if i was approached (say, i was wearing a bandana instead of a sheitel and a denim skirt) and didn't mind to change the seats, i would.

i completely hear why the second guy would be upset, but the truth is, people have different sensitivities/mishigasim.

((running away as i can predict how this thread will turn))

Man A is a chassid shoteh.

But he's not. Man A has taken upon himself a stringency that Man B hasn't. Man B obviously feels no need for the stringency and perhaps feels its totally ridiculous but that doesn't mean Man B should be ridiculed for it. You don't mind sitting next to a woman, he does - why not accommodate him?

It's only a chumra, its not like he's asking him to eat pork chops..

1. Man B may for all Man A knows have the same stringency regardless of the fact that he is wearing jeans.
2. Even if he doesn't, it's kind of rude to ask another Jew to be a "shabbos goy" of sorts even for something that's just a chumra.

Levush is often a reliable indicator of general hashkafah, but not always, and certainly one should not assume that a person who appears more LW would be okay with being asked to do things that you yourself would not. Why didn't Man A ask a nearby goy to switch seats with him? Because he's uncomfortable explaining the reasons to a goy? Why is it then okay for him to put out (and potentially insult) another yid so that he can save face in front of goyim?

All things being equal (e.g. not a middle seat vs. aisle seat situation) I would have no problem moving. Why not, no reason to take offence imho.

Right. Once in was in a situation where there were two women who were going to be a nursing babies and a chassidish man was stuck in the middle. I ended up switching with him, and the poor guy got stuck with the middle seat in the five-seater row. I definitely profited, the two women profited, but did he?

1. Man B may have the same stringency but from his appearance he most likely doesn't. Man A didn't assume Man B doesn't have the same stringency, he asked. If Man B did indeed have the same stringency he could politely say so.

2. I don't see how or why it would be rude. This guy, for whatever reason, chose to take it upon himself to act in a certain manner. Imagine if a guy undertook a taanis dibbur for the day, would you hesitate to, say, speak to a bank teller on his behalf? Or what if you and your friend are on a trip together and you have between you two candy bars, one cholov stam and one cholov yisroel, you don't keep cholov yisroel and she does, would you feel insulted if your friend asks you to take the cholov stam bar and her the chilov yisroel one? What if it was pesach, your friend was sefardi, and one bar contained rice while the other one didn't (but was kosher for peach) would you hesitate to ask her to eat the rice bar?


He didn't ask a nearby goy because he thought a fellow Jew would be understanding and more than happy to help him out...

yes, it's definitely easier and more comfortable asking a jew as opposed to a non-jew about this, because the former is familiar with the concept.

i also don't see a crime in this, and it's definitely not a "shabbos goy" situation.


just curious: what if the guy B was wearing jeans, flip flops and a kippah serugah? is it then ok to ask, because "levush is often a reliable indicator of general hashkafah"?

The difference between your scenarios and this, is that you're asking a friend who knows how you hold and assumably will not be insulted by being asked to give consideration to the other's frumkeit.

Why wouldn't a goy be understanding and more than happy to help him out also? Most goyim are pretty agreeable. Obviously he insulted the other yid, for which he should apologize. I can understand why he asked, and I don't think the wording was offensive, but many people have a chip on their shoulder as far as how the RW perceive them.



I can understand about the comfort level, but I don't think I would davka ask another jew to change seats with me when I can simply ask a neighboring goy. I HAVE gone up davka to yidden to ask them to watch luggage for me while I made a bathroom run and the like, because I trust a frum yid more than a goy, but I don't see why it's necessary to go to the trouble in this scenario.

I think even if Guy B was dressed in a srugie, one should be careful where they tread, for the reasons I mentioned above to Torn. People to the left are VERY sensitive about how they are perceived, and while this man may not care at all, he may be insulted as the velvet-yarmulke man is (after all, srugie probably feels he's just as frum, too).


I don't think it's wrong to ask another yid to change seats with you, but I think it should be understood that people *can* perceive this as insulting if they think you come with an attitude of "well HE'S not as frum as I am, so he can move to accomodate me".

Man A obviously should have asked a woman sitting next to a man to switch seats with him. That would have been a heck of a lot more logical.

He shouldn't have asked a frum person. That is just degrading, even if the person clearly doesn't have a problem sitting next to chicks.
It is like using him as a "Shabbos goy"...

Whys that?

9

Yeah, besides she might be cute.

I think it's bad karma to switch seats on an airplane. Not a leaf falls my happenstance. Your assigned seat has cosmic implications and you shouldn't be messing with it. Your boarding pass is a kli from Hashem just like a lottery ticket.

But maybe the fact that he asked you to switch is a kli from Hashem.

On my last flight to Germany my record was six changes. I couldnt say no to anybody cuz I didnt care and I felt bad for everyone. I ended up sitting in the middle of the middle.

9

Was she cute?

It was a test. The correct response to this test is to say, no. Saying no is your hishtadlut. When the plane crashes, and he dies, and you and the cute blond chick survive end up talking at the memorial service at the crash site...and the rest is history beshaah tovah umutzlachat.

I was between a young jewish guy and his wife. Neither of them were very talkative, so I just alternated between talking to them, my seat and myself.

9

Fancy that! They both preferred to sit next to you rather than each other.

Why weren't they sitting together?

I know. I can't help being me.


I think they both wanted aisle seats. Or maybe they both wanted my autograph and a chance to talk to me.

9

I think it's rude, just because a guy is wearing jeans doesn't make him any less frum does it?
Why wouldn't the guy in jeans be any more comfortable sitting next t a woman than the black hatter? And the fact that the black hatter thinks that a frum guy in jeans obviously has no problem with this just goes to prove Melech's posts all along, that "frummies" beliefs about MO is skewed, is sometimes right.

To take the other position (as a MO), since there's nothing halachically wrong with sitting next to a woman, and since MO tend to follow halacha and not be interested in yeshivish chumras like not sitting next to a woman despite the fact that it's clearly permitted, it's probably correct to assume someone in jeans wouldn't care. This has in fact happened to me, and my response is that I find it less insulting than amusing, and if the seat is of the same quality or better i will oblige but I will not move to a middle seat to indulge some stranger's chumra.

What's far more insulting and obnoxious (and has happened to me as well) is when I sit down next to a frum girl (usually on the way back from seminary) and she asks me if I can switch to another seat.

Yeah that IS chutzpa. It is one thing to move YOURSELF if you are uncomfortable with the seating arrangements but how dare someone ask ME to move....

Because Man A put a chumra ahead of potentially insulting someone and increasing sinat chinam.

All he did was ask to change seats. When I changed seats six times (within 2 minutes of boarding) I didnt feel any sinat chinam for anybody. Why would you assume people hate people for asking for favors?

9

Besides, if you switch seats and then the guy in YOUR seat dies, death will eventually find you.

As a woman, I also would not have switched seats with him, unless I happened to be feeling extremely generous that day and/or the seat I would be moving to was more comfortable for me (i.e., a window or aisle vs. a middle seat).

In general, I think it's a lot of chutzpah to take a plane and then expect everyone to shuffle seats with you just because of your religious beliefs.
If you buy a plane ticket, you KNOW you may have to sit next to a woman. Deal with it.

Once I flew to Israel, and upon arrival at Ben Gurion airport I got on a Nesher shared sherut to Jerusalem. (It's a van with about 10 seats in it.)
I got there early enough to get a single seat (not on the bench having to sit next to others.)

The van started filling up, and this haredi guy asked me if he could have the single seat, and I could sit on one of the benches next to some women. I refused. I don't see why my sensibilities (I prefer not to sit next to strangers if I don't have to) are less important than his (he prefers not to sit next to women if he doesn't have to.)

Thus proceeded a whole shuffling of the van, until a Modern Orthodox (presumably) man ended up sitting next to some women and the haredi guy got a seat to himself.

The Modern Orthodox guy confided in me "What can we do? It's not right, but otherwise these people (meaning the haredim) cause so much trouble we will never get to Jerusalem."

I wonder if the haredim know how much they are resented, and that they are generally seen - by both secular and Modern Orthodox - at least in Israel - as "these people who cause lots of trouble"?

Read through this whole thread and you will get plenty of people explaining why they bristle at this sort of behavior. But notice I said "potentially" insulting someone. Sure, there's no guarantee, by why risk it? Insulting someone is a heck of a lot worse of an aveira than sitting next to a woman on an airplane.

So therefore you label him a chosid shoteh? Just because there are some overly sensitive people he's a chosid shoteh for not taking them into consideration?

9

I love it when people label others as being "overly sensitive" in order to avoid taking their feelings into account.

This is my new favorite quote regarding you and I shall be using it liberally.

The poor guy just asked to change seats. Thats all. If that insults you, you have no business flying on a plane, or being anywhere in public for that matter.

Sig anybody?

9

They are not good for you! (Not to mention assur.)

Being in someones sig?

9

Oh, sig. I thought you said cig.

So you're not gonna add grends comment to your sig?

9

No.

Anybody?

9

I don't think that they care, but one thing is for sure. Their approach works, and this story is proof in the pudding of that.......

Nobody? It would help me greatly.

9

The proper response in that situation is "Sure, how about yours!" and then proceed to gently sit on her lap.