http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/s....html?id=292438



http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/S....html?id=293471



http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/S....html?id=293472

1. Her name is Hogg

2.

indeed....

Just by the way, to clarify the geography for those who don't know:

Thornhill is a political region immediately north of Toronto. This rabbi has a Chabad Outreaching shul in Thornhill.
Thornhill is part of two municipalities, Vaughan and Markham. Richmond Hill is a municipality immediately adjacent to and north of Thornhill.

The only valid point in all 3 articles was that the rabbis could have done a better job by realizing this would happen and explaining it in advance. (Personally I would just shake, but I understand those who do not agree that this halachically acceptable). The gender discrimination charge is misleading since a religious woman wouldn't have shaken hands with a man, either. I heard a wonderful suggestion once, which is that the best answer is not to shake anyone's hands and pass that off as traditional, since then no one is singled out.

When I was in YU, I was once balancing a lot of books at lunch in the cafeteria and put my money on the counter rather than handing it to the non Jewish female cashier. She took offense to this and told me that it was rude not to hand her the money directly "unless it's because you are one of those guys who wants to avoid touching a woman's hand, in which case I understand." Ironically, that would have made it less offensive to her! I apologized to her and always made a point of directly giving her the cash from then on (even though I see nothing rude about placing it on the counter and have never heard anyone else have a hakpada about this).

what is the halachic concern of placing money into a cashier's hand? are women temei'ot like a neveilah? or do you hold that you can't do any of the harchakot even with someone not your wife?

Me? I have no concerns - apparently someone else must have told her that. I just had my hands full - I shake hands with women when it's socially expected.

In chassidish grocery stores I have seen many times that the female cashiers will place change in a cup and put the cup on the counter rather than directly hand it to a male customer. Maybe a chassidish member here can explain the issue.

apparently the rabbi involved here usually does call ahead to explain the hand shaking thing but didn't get a chance this time for whatever reason.
I am just shocked that the woman would publicly complain about this when her area is comprised of a lot of Jews, unless she has been living undera rock somewhere, and had no idea before about any of this.

What if you reach into your pocket for coins, and drop them into her hand, and then discover that you also dropped pocket lint into her hand, and you feel horrible about that, so you try to remove the pocket lint by fanning your hand over hers, but that doesn't work, so you gingerly reach down and try to grab and extract the lint, but while you do so, you unintentionally stroke her palm with your finger, and then you realize that someone (your mom, wife, rabbi, etc.) is standing behind you watching you stroke the palm of this woman?

It's embarrassing.

I fault both sides in this case. Firstly, the deputy mayor should have done better research to know who would be attending this function and understand that Ontario is a multi-cultural province whereby different customs exist (the Muslim attendees would have also taken issue with her shaking the hands of a Muslim male). However, from what I understand, if someone of the opposite gender extends their hand to shake, one should exchange the gesture in order not to embarass or insult the person. If an orthodox person feels that, even with this stipulation, they are unwilling to shake the other person's hand, then maybe they shouldn't be attending functions where this may be a possibility.

Most of the "chassidishe" groceries I know of employ male cashiers exclusively, many of which will directly hand women receipts and credit cards (and often change). I would think that if a female cashier is putting down change, it is to avoid an incident of trying to hand it to a chassidishe man and have him make a scene as he refuses to take it directly from her. The idea here is to avoid touching the woman, however casually, while making the transaction. I've never seen anyone place change in a cup; they simply place it on the counter for the person to retrieve. Because so many male grocers will hand money back to me, I assume that a female grocer is being machmir on her customer's behalf, not knowing if she's going to offend them or not by attempting to hand them change. A male cashier is more in control and can decide for himself whether to initiate that potential interaction.

Or maybe they just wanted an excuse to stroke my palm.

What if the mayor did research and found out that it would have been mutar meikar hadin?
The rabbis in such situations are only trying to do PR. If they don't know how to do PR, they should just stay in their beis chabad and not cause an unnecessary chilul Hashem...

I say remove her from office. A public official should be mindful and respectful of her constituent's traditions...

(wow, this smiley does come in handy around here...)

A friend once told me that sometimes she drives so her husband doesn't have to give the money to the (potential) female at the toll booth. Although my immediate reaction was that he was being pseudo-frum and over-the-top, I asked someone (whose opinion I may or may not trust) about it afterwards, and I was told that if it was done sincerely and the guy is genuinely holding there, it's a laudable act. I'm still not so sure...

What if instead of a handshake it would have been socially acceptable, and aesthetically required, in this locale to hug and kiss one another (as it is or was, in some places)? Would the Rabbi have to acquiesce to that too?

I would assume that the mayor in that case would understand if the Rabbi only offered a handshake, since that's what her advisors would have said was allowed for a Rabbi.

This reminds me of Chief Rabbi of Zionist State Lau and First Lady Hillary Clinton.

Apparently – so the tale goes – she was warned beforehand that he won’t shake her hand. Apparently – so the tale goes- he shocked her by offering her his.

mosheshmeal
.

He probably thought she was a man, which isn't surprising given her dress and demeanor.

Then there's the chief politician (ceremonial) of the Zionist state and the first lady of pop:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_0...609_468x600.jpg

i agree.

OT: i might be too sensitive and overreacting, but i don't think hitler-looking smiley has any place, however "funny" it looks. i really think it's offensive. ditto for the KR's avatar

And if instead of a rabbi this had been an imam, no one would have made any big deal over it. Whether the rabbi acted according to halakha or not is immaterial here. It is a widespread custom and if it doesnt accord with modern "sensibilities" so what?

You mean he's not?

Nah, men (generally) aren't that ruthless....

I wonder if she was insulted and offended?

It must be hard for the wife to have a husband at such risk for hirhurim that even dropping coins into the hand of a toll booth collecter on the Interstate is enough to trigger those hirhurim.

In Israel, at least in the frum areas, the money is never placed into an opposite-gendered person's hand at the register. Always thought that was cool.

I understand it's a laudable act for people with needs for these types of personal gedarim.
Although it begs the question why people avoid doing so.

Wow. I see this happening in England, but never in America where there isn't the ridiculous European liberal expectation that you abandon your traditional values when you interact with the society at large.

To avoid touching when coins and bills exchange hands?

ok. So why would people want to avoid touching when coins and bills exchange hands?

They're worried it might lead to sex or fantasizing in the shower.

Fair enough. Then it's understandable to have those personal gedarim.

It must be a female cashier thing, because most of the male cashiers hand me my change, and the female ones slam it down on the ledge.

(I live in Israel.)

(I was just trying to return to the discussion of the article in the OP)

The refusal to shake a woman's hand indirectly led to the deaths of 13,000 Greek Jews.
maasseh shehaya kach haya. When the Queen of Greece came to visit the Jewish quarter of Salonika, Greece in the 30's, the Chief Rabbi of that city- an elderly learned Sephardic Jew refused to shake her extended hand. It was a scandal and he was politely dimissed by the Jewish community. In his place they elected a contemptible Polish Jew by the name of Rabbi Koretz. Koretz was educated in Germany and spoke fluent Greek and Ladino as well as several other languages. During the Nazi occupation he is reported to have urged the Jews to heed the Nazi laws and proceeded to hand over to the Nazi authorities a complete list of community memebers, the majority of whom perished in the death camps.

paranoa of women a trait in the haredi/islamic world

Which is exactly why I never refuse to shake a woman's hand, I don't want that kind of responsibility.

In Japan people of either gender place the money on the counter and cashiers of either gender will place the change on the counter and there is absolutely no physical contact. This doesn't stop any of the males from having hirhurim, if porn readership is any indicator...

correction. BS rabbinic rules indirectly lead to the deaths of 13,000 Jews. in the orthodox world BS rules are more important than common sense

thank you sephardic-male for the insightful correction.

It's OK, they wear gloves now... (really)

Some men won't take an item directly from a woman's hand to avoid accidentally touching her but will say hold out a big item for her to deposit a smaller item on whilst he is holding it (eg the meshulach who will hold out his laminated letter for a female to put money on).

I dont know whether the rabbi shuld or should not have shook her hand, there are halachic sources/opinions for both arguments as i recall. But the posts on this story remind me of a story with Rabbi A Twerski, which may or may not be true, but i think is a true point either way:

Rav Avrohom Twersky, who dresses in Chassidic garb, was once approached by a very irate Jew. “What’s the matter with you?! Why do you insist on prancing around in that medieval get-up? Don’t you realize how ridiculous you look? You bring scorn and derision onto all Jews!”

“I don’t understand thee and what thou hast said,” Rav Twersky responded. “For you see, I am Amish and this is the mode of dress that we’ve maintained throughout the generations.”

“I beg your forgiveness,” pleaded the quickly back-pedaling Jew. “I didn’t realize that you were Amish. You should know that I only have the utmost respect for you and your people -- keeping your ways without bowing to society’s whims of the day.”

“Well, in fact, I’m Jewish,” Rav Twersky informed the now thoroughly confused fellow. “Why can you respect in others what you can’t respect in yourself?”

when will jews stop hating other jews more than anyone else hates us????

As far as I can see the Toronto official woman wasn't Jewish, was she?

No. However, many of the respondents to the original article are Jewish.

It is shocking to me that a newspaper can print such anti-semitic garbage. In the U.S. they'd be shut down. The guy who defends the Rabbi does it with ignorance and prejudice.

Yes. It's normal for a European newspaper to print this kind of "our way or the highway" nationalistic nonsense, but it would be completely unacceptable and shocking in a US paper. It's interesting to see where the Canadian culture falls on that spectrum.

I always found that story exceedingly silly. In all likelihood the guy doesn't respect Amish people, he just doesn't care if Amish look stupid (as opposed to his fellow Jews), and so backed off. But really, do you think the average person, Jewish or otherwise, respects the Amish? They are a tourist attraction and an anachronism (and I say this as someone who has actually met Amish people in non-tourist contexts). No one says "wow, those Amish are really doing a great thing" but "wow, those Amish are nutters." Defending Chassidish dress by appealing to people's respect for the Amish is like defending Orthodox Judaism by appealing to people's respect for Mormonism.

The reason for extra gedarim often isn't because the person is extra susceptible to hirhurim, but because they want to further excel in self-control.