What is the protocol regarding the length of time which must pass before you invite a couple for a meal in reciprocation of a meal to which they invited you? For example, you are invited to lunch on shabbos. You want to invite this couple over to your place to reciprocate. Assume these folks are friens of yours.

It seems to me that simply inviting them over the next week is too soon. It just seems tacky in a way. I think even 2 or 3 weeks is too soon. Personally, I think a month needs to go by before you invite them over to your place.

What do you think?

Also, if you and this couple are both invited to a 3rd person's home does that reset the clock (is it x number of weeks since you were invited to their home or x number of weeks since you saw them last)?

4 weeks sounds about right for a minimum.

Supplemental no. 1: What's the outside limit beyond which it's no longer a timely reciprocation?


No. Doesn't affect the clock at all, in my opinion.

We keep a list of people we owe.

Supplemental no. 2: what happens with people who are too darn frum to accept your reciprocation? Is it awkward to go there in the first place?
And if you are one of the people who don't accept others' invitations, do you still invite people? And what do you tell them? Do you lie and make up excuses all the time, or are you actually honest and tell them you don't trust their ability to check lettuce?

Supplemental no. 3: You're invited for shabbat lunch. But your parents call and tell you they are coming for shabbat. Is it ok to call the hosts and ask if it's ok if the parents come along?

Gosh do you really have to be that formal about things? You invite them back when it suits both of you. I don't think both of you being invited to a third party paters you from having to invite them, or makes any difference as to when you see them next. If you think like this, then I don't think you are really that close a friend. It should be spontaneous and natural, not according to a set of rules.

And here I thought you were frum.

Seriously, people want to know proper etiquette. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.

I agree with lyric. We just invite people when we feel like it, we don't make a calendar of when everyone was last invited and when we last went to their place

We had a similar situation this week. I have had two very busy Shabbosos when I had loads of guests for both meals and I was tired and fancied a week off, at least Friday night. We always make Shabbos lunch at home because my MIL who isn't well, always eats with us then. I told my husband to hint to one of the kids that they should invite us for Friday night. Before we got any invitation, I had a phonecall from a regular visitor to the UK who always eats with us on Shabbos when he is here. He basically said: "HI, I'm here!" and waited for me to invite him for Friday night. I was honest and told him I was trying to get out of making Friday night this week as I had two very busy weeks, but he was welcome Shabbos lunch. Shabbos lunch didn't suit him. We agreed that he'd call again on Thursday (ie today) to check if I had received any invitations. Duly, one of the kids invited us, but I told her the story and she said he is very welcome to come along too. So when he called me just earlier, he jumped at the chance to join us at our daughter's. So it's OK to ask the hosts so long as they are very close to you, but give them a clear get-out clause in case it isn't convenient for them.

1) I say 4 months. That means 3 months from the 4 week minimum point when they are "eligible" for an invitation.

2) Happy because those people are waaaayyy to frum for me in the first place and would definitely not enjoy having to have them at my house. It's awkward to go there repeatedly, certainly. After a while I'd start to make excuses not to go and hope they got the message.

3) I think you have to present it like you want to reschedule and hope that they offer to have your parents also.


Sure, that's what my wife said. But, some people (me) have bizarre social rules that exist in their head and they need to know these things.

As well, some people (me) are socially awkward and it's helpful to have clear rules to guide me so I know if what I'm doing is socially acceptable or not. Were I to rely on my own sense of what feels 'natural', it wouldn't be pretty.

oy yoy yoy. What is this world coming to? As if there isn't enough 't-i-t for t-a-t' already going on you have to add more?


I don't think I am too frum to accept your invitation but if it was someone's home who I wouldn't eat at, but was willing to invite over, I would enjoy their company at my home. Yes, I still invite people. I will say 'we don't eat out because of a, b or c as we have discussed this with a rav' and be very honest with them. I don't believe in lying, that can teach my kinderlach to lie. I try to be honest and tell them I won't eat salad unless I know exactly how it was checked.

Anyways, it's really not worth the time/effort to invite us, we have too many needs. It's easier if you come to us. [This is an ACTUAL open invitation to any h.com member and his/her family]


Depends on host and situation. In some cases, yes, in some cases no. Sometimes I would also suggest calling back and saying 'I just found out my parents are coming, so how about you come to us for the meal?' At this point they can easily get out of it by saying 'no that's okay, enjoy your parents' or 'okay, we'll reschedule' or 'why not just have them come along? the more the merrier'


You also probably don't keep triplicates of all your documents neatly filed away (or do you? )

I think a list is WAY too extreme. Keeping it in mind is one thing, a list another.

ETA: no point in this extra paragraph, so deleted it.

I agree with Melech. At least a month, probably more. Otherwise it gets boring.

It's not that. It's a matter of keeping accurate records so we don't inadvertently forget. Most of the time my wife simply remembers whom we owe, but sometimes we get far behind and make a list.


That's funny. You probably say that because you are unaware of our dietary needs. You ever make a gluten-free shabbat lunch before?

Well if you need rules then I would say four months is a bit long; people begin to feel unwanted and unloved after about two months.

We have diabetics, coeliacs, and people who don't eat Chodosh, people who only eat Kedassia meats (which we now make a point of only having as it's easier) and the checked salad thing is quite common too and I always have checked salad anyway. As long as we know in advance I think we can accommodate most special requirements.

I may have, what would it entail? consist of? (or not be allowed to consist of?)

Did you have to kasher your kitchen and pots?

Of course not...the other meats weren't treif. It was all a spectrum of kashrus. The other meats were perfectly kosher just some people were makpid just to eat from the kedassia hechsher so in the end we stuck to that.

I doubt if you have - it would mean no wheat or spelt. But there's oat matzah for instance, that we use for the sedorim. But I'm just kidding because we don't impose our shtick on hosts [although sometimes my wife will bring spelt challah]. My daughter, for instance, will pretend to wash with everyone but drink a revi'it of grape juice in order to be yotzeh kiddush be-makom se'udah. We don't actually make a big deal about it.

Unless situations otherwise arrive to necessitate an earlier invite, a month is a great time period.

If the family is “too frum” to eat by you, (although I’m not so sue that’s the correct loshon), bring something packaged or send it before Shabbos/yomtov.

So why are they makpid on eating only from that hechsher if other meats are perfectly kosher?


You're right. It's "too frum to eat at your home", not to eat by you.

The challos would have to be made from gluten free flour and would taste accordingly. Similarly anything containing wheat flour (croutons, deli roll, anything with pastry... pasta, lockshen, etc. Rice noodles are fine. You'd be safe to have a high protein hardly any carb meal and just keep the carbs away from the coeliacs. Have normal challos for the other members but serve gluten free ones for these. I'm not sure if gluten free challah is counted as hamotzi... is it?

Most isn't but there is oat matzah that they make in England.

Hear hear about the "by you" thing; it drives me nuts. It's *with you*.

You can decide for yourself to be machmir on hechsherim without it saying that everything not chumradik is treif. It's like not carrying in an eruv which has been passed as fine by reliable rabbonim. If you take upon yourself not to use any eruv that's your chumra and yours alone.



Oh yes the oat matza. I had some of that once. It tastes like eating solidified porridge.

Well, we don't use spelt, but we do use wheat. Other than challah would a meal such as the following be problematic?
salmon
salami rice
shnitzel pie
roasted veggies
taco salad (leave tacos on side so ppl can add in on their own)
one more side?? (what would it be?)
marshmallows and ice cream for dessert

what does she eat at the meal, does she starve?


Can you buy it at the bakery?


So how much does it cost?

Do you have enough imported so that she can make homotzi for every Shabbos seudah? How do you order it? receive it? etc.?

ETA: make sweet potatoes the missing dish

Salmon is fine. We eat a lot of that.
We wouldn't go near salami with a ten foot pole.
Roasted vegetables are ok but my wife doesn't eat white potatoes or nightshade vegetables so it depends which vegetables you're roasting.
What's in the taco salad?
Shnitzel pie typically has wheat - that's problematic for the gluten-free girl and the other wheat-free person.
Marshmallows and ice cream is usually fine.




She makes do.

Supp 2: We don't have that but we do have people we know we can't reciprocate because of logistics (e.g., we have a small apt with room for 8 chairs max and they have a larger family.) We try to show our friendship in other ways (and our friends are cool people so they understand).

Supp 3: We did this over Rosh HaShana when we had a last-minute guest. They were cool with it (it was very last minute, he showed up 30 min before candlelighting and Hubby asked our hosts in shul.) Otherwise, we follow VLG's suggestion of asking to reschedule due to parents and hoping they extend an invite.



Quoted for truth.



Yup, yup, yup.



Yes. I've also made a gluten-free break-the-fast. Actually, the break-the-fast was gluten-free and vegetarian. I've also done vegan for shabbos but haven't combined that with gluten-free (although I guess I could, it's just never come up.)

You're welcome to come to us anytime you're in town (all I ask is to know by Wed that you're coming that shabbos and that you bring any chairs you'll need over the 6 we can provide.)

Yeah, but kashrut is different since past use of pots for food affects future use. If Sender doesn't hold by eiruvin, yeah, that's his shtick alone. But if Sender doesn't hold by Hechsher X, then he can't eat anything cooked in pots that previously cooked Hechsher X meat.
If the meat isn't treif, what is the reason for not eating non-kedassia meat?



Yeah, something like that.

What about a person who CAN'T reciprocate (ie, doesn't have the facilities to provide for meals, can't afford to cook for more people, etc)? Should they just not go when invited out? Should they bring gifts to make up for the lack of reciprocal invitation? What if they go regularly to the same people?

we were invited to our asst. rav's house for lunch but we are not allowed to invite them back. I felt (at first) that maybe my kashrus wasn't up to par, until I found out that is their policy for everyone. but it is odd not to invite back.



I think it is fine to ask your hosts to have your parents too, most people make too much food anyways and a couple more people won't make a difference.

Does salami have wheat in it?
Usually when I make it it consists of various colored peppers,onions, garlic.
Taco salad partially depends on what I have but is basically chick peas, greens, olives, avocado, cherry tomatoes (BF, am I missing something) and dressing consists of mayo and salsa plus a few spices.
How does shnitzel pie have wheat if i leave off shnitzel coating (Which I have done) - it would just be 'chicken cutlets' pastrami, and instant mashed potatoes (or not instant if I don't have any)
Why is the other wheatfree?

I love ice cream. (I made my own on motz"sh, yum!!!!)

I think it puts the host in a very awkward position, as how are they supposed to say no? And maybe they really DIDN'T want the extra guests, or the extra cooking (not everyone makes "too much food" - I've been at plenty of shabbos tables where something disappears before everyone can have). I think if the family is known for big shabbosim, it's one thing, but if they don't normally have a lot of guests, you can't assume that it's something that would be normally okay.

Salami has poison. Might as well take a rubber stopper slightly larger than the diameter of your coronary arteries and just go ahead and plug them up. And the nitrates are a problem.
Peppers are nightshade vegetables.
Taco salad sounds fine.
If you leave off the shnitzel coating, it should be fine. Pastrami is another no-no for us, just like salami.
Mashed potatoes are problematic if it's white potatoes.

The other is wheat free because that person gets hives with even one piece of challah so that person sticks to spelt.

But really, this is making us sound more finicky than we really are. Again, we don't impose our shtick on hosts. Whatever they serve is fine.

I wonder if non-kosher people who try to accomodate frum guests have the same feeling of awed horror I felt when reading this....

Probably. But a big difference is that I keep on emphasizing that we don't impose our shtick on hosts and whatever they serve is fine.

Yeah, and I tell people I'll bring my own food. Most hosts want to feel like they're accommodating their guests and get frustrated when they can't, or when doing so becomes overwhelmingly complicated.

i heard that a lot about rabbis. they can't go to everyone who invites them because they'll never be home and they don't want to make anyone feel bad so they just decline all invitations.

Agreed. Nothing really wrong with it, but I think on a certain level there's an awkwardness when people won't eat in your home for religious reasons.


You're probably usually right, but sometimes people may have space limitations or whatever. And just as people generally don't invite themselves over, it can be awkward to invite others along with you.


At least that's a bit better than the A-list.
http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?showtop...168&hl=list

I have never heard of a rabbi who did not have the policy of only hosting people. I don't think it is awkward b/c you know there is no expectation of inviting them over (I can't begin to imagine how uncomfortable it would be if I had to invite the rabbi of my shul over to my house).

I have. In my brother's community, and also in my brother-in-law's community, the rabbi eats at congregants' homes. I think it's wonderful.


In my community, the rabbi has a similar policy that he doesn't eat at congregants' homes. However, he does. No matter how much the claim is otherwise. There are indeed certain people he will eat at. A limited number, and people are hush hush about it, but there are indeed exceptions.

Sorry I have never heard of anyone round our way worrying about the past use of pots or even present use of pots of meat of a different hechsher. Even those who don't brock on Pesach (and we do) are quite happy to eat our food, even our chicken soup so long as the kneidlach aren't actually in their bowls. This is different from people who don't misch, who won't eat out at all until the 8th day. No one has expected us to kasher our pots if we have used, say Federation or Beis Din Glatt meat in the past, and they have taken upon themselves only to eat kedassia. And it IS the same as the eruv thing because it is only their shtick.

OK, I'm just having a hard time understanding why that is. It seems to me they hold by kedassia either because
1. other meat is possibly treif. in which case you couldn't use the pots.
2. other meat is not treif but there are certain hiddurim or whatever, chumrot, that we want that other hechsherim don't do. I'm wondering what those hiddurim are.

The other possibility is that people are sticking to kedassia for reasons other than halachic.

Hmmm..so no deli for you guys?
Are nightshade vegetables good or bad?
Ah, ok..
What do you serve for a typical shabbos meal in your home?


My parents rav has eating at their home quite a few times.

No deli.
Nightshades are bad.


I've hijacked this thread enough. I suppose that's a question for either members corner or the recipe subforum.

Like in Israel, a lot of it is political. In fact when Dayan Ehrentreu (Av Beis Din, London) was "in power" he often said that in his opinion the Kedassia hechsher left a lot to be desired. But then again, he would say that wouldn't he. In restaurants, a kedassia restaurant has to have a full time mashgiach whereas a Federation or Beis Din one doesn't, so it can be considered as superior, but my husband generally will eat at a Beis Din restaurant as long as he knows the owner/manager is reliable and is preferably Jewish and will eat at all Federation restaurants but prefers to have Kedassia meat at home mainly for the sensitivity of our guests. My DIL used to work on the London Beis Din Kashrus dept and tipped us off as to the mos reliable Beis Din restaurants.

What makes it awkward? Would it be less awkward if someone declined invitations for other reasons (they prefer their own cooking or eating at home, or don't want to have to worry about chasing kids around a stranger's house)?

Do you feel it's awkward not to be able to bring over a kigel or cookies to a new neighbor, or take freshly baked challah to someone's house, because you know they won't eat it due to kashrus concerns?



My old shul rav used to go to people regularly for shabbosim and yomim tovim, but then, he was also much younger and it was a small community. I DO know it bothered people that there was a "no bringing outside food into the shul" rule, and his wife was constantly doing baking at her own house for kiddushim and then bringing it.

Indeed. That's where I was taking this.






Yes. I'm sensitive.

Melech, does someone specifically have a sensitivity to nightshade vegetables or is this a precaution? That's a large segment of the vegetable population.

In theory it might be nice if the shul rabbi ate at other's homes. However, practically speaking I think it is a much better idea if he has a policy of not going anywhere. Sooner or later he'll be invited to someone who doesn't really keep kosher and then getting out of the invitation will be tricky.

Plus, I have to assume if the rabbi went out then many people would invite him and there would be the politicking of which invitations he accepts. I think a blanket no-go policy is much wiser.

A precaution. It's really one member of the family who is makpid on it and we do have some, just generally not. So we don't do things that call for peppers, for example, like stuffed peppers, but we'll have cut up red peppers because it's a vegetable the boys like. Again, we're not fanatics about it, it's more about making choices and substitutions when possible.

the rav in my community knows he can't trust everyone's kashrus level so his family doesn't eat out so as not to hurt ppl's feelings. however, his kids are allowed to eat at certain friend's houses.
I think it's a smart policy.
I've been to pple's houses where my husband and I didn't eat some of the food because we knew it wasn't up to our standards, which gets tricky.

I agree. Also, the rabbi (at least at our shul) often/always has guests over (and uses this as a way to greet new faces and to stay connected with members) and if he accepted invitations elsewhere, that would mean he couldn't invite people as much.