very interesting, in my opinion. the full article has more details. (i'm really not interested as much as predicting the answer, as discussing it, but figured, for once, i came with a cute title (or so i think), so might as well use it)

http://www.jewishpress.com/displayContent_...amp;subid=20531

I am 26 years old and I’m sick of the dating scene. It’s been a long haul for me – I feel very depressed and frustrated at my single state. I am a graduate of __________yeshiva, studied in _________ seminary in Jerusalem, and when I returned from Israel, I entered the shidduch scene. In high school and seminary I was always very popular and everyone thought I would be among the first to get married. ... But now, seven years down the road, after more dates than I would care to count, I’m still single, while most of my friends are married with children.

Most of the boys I dated liked me, but I just don’t know why, I couldn’t connect. To be honest, I did have a few rejections, but in the end, I don’t think I would have wanted to marry them anyway. As the years passed, I received fewer and fewer calls; I guess people gave up on me.

Four months ago, by pure chance, I met a terrific guy and really connected with him. We share the same likes...conversation flows easily, we have a great time together...In short, we enjoy each other’s company. He just feels “right.” So what, you may ask, is the problem? Why don’t I get engaged? Well, there is a problem, and it’s huge! – He’s not observant of the mitzvot. He did go to a day school through high school, but his commitment is marginal. Sad to say, he’s not really Shomer Shabbos, and while he doesn’t eat treif meat, he has no problem eating fish in a non-kosher restaurant. He certainly has a Shabbos table, makes Kiddush, etc., but more than that, I don’t know.

He tells me that at this point in his life, he is involved in many business dealings and cannot suddenly make a radical change, but he assures me that once we are married, he will become Shomer Shabbos and fully observant. He comes from a traditional background, so it’s not foreign to him. I tried to get him to a Torah class, but he just doesn’t have the time; he promised me that if we marry, hewould attend classes. On the plus side, he is very kind and considerate of me, but can I trust him to keep his promise?

It’s a decision that I cannot make with a full heart. Whether I think yes or no, I’m left troubled. “Yes” leads me to ask, “Can I trust him?” – “Will he keep his word?” “No” makes me equally nervous. “Will I ever find another person to whom I can relate with such ease and love?”

My response would be:

"Married With Children" was an inapproriate sitcom that has no place being mentioned by a Jewish girl. As for the question, my advice would be that it is a known fact that people do not suddenly change after they get married. They do not lose twenty pounds, put on a black hat, quit smoking, or grow ten-foot peyos. It just doesn't happen. Particularly the peyos, because really no one has such long ones. But I digress. Since your heart sees him as a desirable mate, I would suggest that you explain to him that you trust him about his commitment to become more religious after you get married, but that you know from your own personal experiences that making such changes are not easy and often do not happen as planned despite your best intentions. Therefore, to make you feel comfortable with this relationship you would appreciate it if he would start NOW by taking even small steps that you can both agree on. One month he might stop eating at non-kosher restaurants. The next month he may stop driving on Shabbos. The next month he may stop watching TV on Shabbos. And so on. This way, you will have a measurable result and can know if he truly is capable of making such lifestyle changes. If he makes the changes that you agree to and can reasonably stick to them, follow your heart and marry him. If he does not, the ball is in your court. As I am not in your circumstances I cannot tell you what to do, but it may come down to choosing between your religious convictions and your desire to get married. I don't think you could be faulted for going either way, but nobody can make that decision other than you. Just remember - people generally do not change. Certainly not overnight.

Quoted for truth (especially the bolded parts.)

I also think that putting life-changes as a prerequisite for marriage is setting the stage later on for mega-resentment. If he doesn't frum out as much as she wants, she'll resent it. If he does frum out but feels stifled because it wasn't actually his choice, he'll resent it.

(Out of curiousity, I didn't read the link but does she mention why she started dating a guy who is so different from her observance-wise in the first place?)

PM is right. The girl needs him to make a lifestyle change because he meanas it, not just to make her happy. Otherwise, he won't stick to it. That means he has to change because he values the religious behaviors he will be doing. If that it true then he should want to change now (something important and valued a person wants to do as soon as possible).

it's in the OP - they met by chance.

Ok, so they met. I meet cute guys everyday (ok, not really but you get the point). Meeting a guy and starting to date a guy are two separate things.

(maybe he is her co-worker, client (she is a lawyer), neighbor)

well, she met him, started talking, saw the conversation flowed, talked some more, now she sees they connect as she never did with anyone else. consider her situation and her mood at this point, and i think her dilemma can be understood from the emotional standpoint. that said, i completely agree with PM. it would be a very risky decision to get married in the hope of him becoming more observant, and it's not a matter of trust, as hse suggests.

In my book The Committed Life I discuss this very scenario, on which my sainted husband ob"m commented that kinder need a tatte who has a bren for shabbos. Perhaps you would come meet me at the Hineni Center so that we can discuss this further, my sweet child.

And so forth.

(Though I think she tries to goy-down terms for people, at least in her books...)

very cute.

what's a "bren"?

colloquially, like a burning desire or fervor

thanks

Yup, with less Yiddish.

Yup, but not in her JP columns!

Artscroll - you are brilliant (either that or you are really the rebbetzin).

She is delusionl if she thinks there is any chance this guy will become and remain frum.

The question is, can she deal with a frei husband and father of her children?
It basically precludes her from being part of any even moderately right wing community. Her kids aren't going to be accepted to many schools and forget shiduchim.

Will the guy be a negative chinuch influence on the kids? And will he cause HER to become more and more lax in her observance???

In general I would say it is a bad idea, and she is only 26. If she were 36 it might be a different story. Although I have seen cases that work, and others that have failed miserably.

(or he's read many of her articles )

Wow. I'm truly impressed.



What about the idea that the wife sets the religious tone and can/will change the husband either towards the right or left?

(I actually agree with you but I've heard this so many times I figured I'd add it to the mix.)

It is generally true but not always.
And this is an extreme case where the husband is not even shomer Shabbos. Certainly the home will have a religious tone and I'm sure the husband will participate, but that doesn't mean he will become a tzadik overnight...

I think she'd have more success changing him if she were not trying to change him.

If she loved him 100% for who he is and just wanted him to be the best he could be (but was not focused on changing anything, so he could become an even more fantastic secular guy and that would be ok with her), she'd have a good shot, I'd say.

Been there, tried that, doesn't work.

it's a nice thing rebbetzins tell women. while i also heard stories of women organizing shiurim in their houses, and the husabnds became interested with time, and became observant, it's a very riksy attitude. the woman can eb encouraging or discouraging, and THAT counts for much, but not to set the tone from secular to frum (or vise versa)

It says it in the Gemara.
There's a story where a couple can't have kids so they get divorced and they both marry frei people.
The man ends up going off the derech and the woman's new husband ends up doing teshuva..

never said it was a guarantee, just more likely to succeed.



Yep. That's the story I hear so often.

She didnt like ANY of the guys she dated over 7 years: "Most of the boys I dated liked me, but I just don’t know why, I couldn’t connect. To be honest, I did have a few rejections, but in the end, I don’t think I would have wanted to marry them anyway."
And then she hits if off with someone who she has a religious conflicts over, and who says "I'll change later," and she isnt sure she should marry.

Can we play therapist for a second? Does she subliminally have problems connecting with marriageable partners?

Ooooh. I like that approach.

So she can only connect with someone she knows she can never marry. So, she never really is in danger of getting truly hurt (connecting and expecting marriage or actually getting married just to have it fail). Safe.

Sort of like the guy at my work who flirts with me but not my office mate because I'm happily married and she's single.

I think there's something wrong with the guys she's been set up with--either consciously or subconsciously she wants something she doesn't see in guys in her circles. That's why she falls for the traditional-but-not-frum guy. And notice that despite her expectations she became a lawyer and did well. If she really had always wanted to be the wife and mother doing chesed she would have chosen a "frum girl career". I think there's a lot about her that she either doesn't realise or isn't telling the Rebbetzin.

He might change but she should never expect it. It's a recipe for disaster.

The Rebbetzin will react with horror and tell her to come to Hineini so she can make a nice shidduch.

Of course this is further proof of the narishkeit of pushing girls to get married before they can have a drink...

Perhaps she would be most happy with an MO guy but since she knows that won't fly with her family, she's pushing the envelope all the way and going for the not-frum guy.

Again, a safer option since either:

1. They won't ever actually get married.

2. If they do get married and it doesn't work out, she already has the reason lined up.

I don't think you realize what you've just done

oh, right, now i remember it, too. i so wouldn't try it personally.



that is assuming that she is from a yeshivishe family. funny that i also thought so, when reading the beginning of the article. when she came to the lawyer point, i started seriously doubting it.



read the whole article - her family (surprisingly for me, i may add) isn't even telling her they'll disown her for marrying him. they seem to be putting the ball in her court.



shhh, just don't tell melech, ok?

I thought she was because of the whole shidduch scenario and having 2 younger siblings already married off. She's certainly not from a very MO background though, from the sound of things. Parents tolerant but not necessarily her community.

We have a winner! http://www.jewishpress.com/displayContent_...amp;subid=20531

Is she always that long-winded?

i think so.

note, she didn't mention that gemara...

She's very sweet.