You are a guest or a host for a shabbat meal. What is your opinion about whether it is laudable/stupid/unnecessary/good etiquette/indifferent to daven at the same shul or minyan as the host or guest?

It is laudable, because it guarantees a synchronized schedule. It is definitely not necessary, though.

I agree it is preferable but not necesary

Do you have a problem with the word "laudable"? Want to take it outside?

I think it's good etiquette to make sure the schedules are synchronized whether or not that means davending at the same minyan. I hate it when guests keep us waiting a long time davening at their longer minyan but then again, for a guy to come early and be alone with all the girls may not be too comfortable either.

doesn't seem like the right word for this type of situation.

what if he's not married and neither are the "girls" and they are of marriageable age? wouldn't it then be a great situation? or do we run from anything that might put a damper to the shidduch "crisis"?

/agenda hijack

replace "all the girls" with "roach farm" and I may understand where you are coming from.

It depends on the size of the town and ease of davening at the same place.

I prefer a time the meal is called for. That way each person can schedule their morning as they see fit. Practically, this might mean davening at the same place as the host, but it might not also.

Sometimes calling for a time isn't practical. Some people (not me of course) like to stay for the whole davening, so if shul is running late the person might have to run out.

I don't think davening at the same minyan is necessary as long as the timing is close.
we had guests once who came to us for lunch at 1:00 (we finished davening at 11:30). Their davening was a bit longer, but they felt it necessary to stay for their shul's kiddush. I think that was rude.

That's where personal discretion comes in and it's why I like this method so much. Truthfully, I do believe davening at the same place is best. However, for many reasons, most of them very subjective, this isn't always suitable. Nevertheless, time of davening is a factor. If I say please be at my house at 1:00 and you don't think you can make by 1:00 if you daven at your favorite shul then it's on you to daven at my shul. If you still want to daven at you shul, fine but then you have made the deicision to leave early or whatever other remedy is necessary to beat the appointed place by the appointed time.

I have a question somewhat related to your agenda hijack. When I was 12, I would spend one hour weekly in the study of my house alone with my 27-28 year old unmarried Bat Mitzvah teacher (who also happened to be an Orthodox rabbi). Putting aside the scandal of a girl learning to lein torah and haftorah for the moment, would the fact that a 12 year old girl was alone with an unmarried young Orthodox rabbi be viewed as "inappropriate" in Orthodox circles?

Just curious, as this question would never even have crossed my mind before coming to h.com.

Not necessarily. The two issues that come immediately to mind is yichud and kol isha. It's not necessarily yichud depending on the particulars of the situation such as if the door is open or your parents can come home at any time unannounced - it's not an insurmountable problem. It's also very arguably not kol isha since kol ishah doesn't apply to leining [and hence the problem for Chazal with women leining is kavod ha-tzibbur; had it been kol ishah, it would have been a slam dunk].

Well, the door was always closed, but it was in the evening so I'm sure there was usually someone else in the house somewhere, although it may not have been my parents, and no one would ever disturb us during the lessons. Kol isha doesn't apply to leining? Interesting... I didn't know that.

Regardless, your parents would have had every right to come in at any time. But that's not a psak. One needs to ask a rabbinic authority if the particular circumstances are yichud or not. Personally, I would think it would be better to keep the door open, but it's not for me to say either way.


Depends whom one asks, but there is a significant body of responsa literature that kol ishah does not apply for leining. Otherwise it would mean women could never lein, which is absurd. But again, depends whom one asks.

It doesn't matter as long as you don't keep them waiting...

We've had this happen too and I also found it very inconsiderate. Especially if we have guests for Shabbos lunch when we have MIL who has dementia; she can't cope with delays and will start becoming unmanageable. Friday nights we are prepared to wait a reasonable amount of time for guests to finish davening; about half an hour. Anything longer and I think it's rude too. They should either daven where hubby does, or else try and find a minyan that finishes approx same time.

Having said that, let me throw another thought into the equation. If you were expecting guests, and for example, you had small children who were getting irritable, or a MIL like mine. would you at any stage, start the meal without the guests? What if the guests have forgotten to show up and never come at all? You have to have a cut-off time don't you?

It's not a matter of etiquette, as the host you invite them to come wherever you go, and plan it in advance. Do you have to make kiddush/hamotzi at the same time?

I don't think i would start the meal, I would send one of my kids to the guest's house to see what the hold up was.
In the same vein, what if the people forgot they invited you to their house and they weren't home? (this actually happened to us, we were moving to a different city that coming week, and had no real food in in our apt. anymore, so we ate baby food jars for shabbos lunch)

Whenever we go out for meals, we ask our hosts what time they plan on starting. If it's earlier than the time my husband usually finishes davening, he just goes to a different minyan that Shabbos. (And I just have to force myself out of bed earlier...)

I believe there are some cases in which it is inadvisable for guests to pray with the same minyan as there host, namely those in which guest and host are of two different nushaoth. People who host my FI and I know that I pray with the local "Sephardic" (sic) minyan, and understand that reza doesn't necessarily end at the same time for all of us. It's no big deal, especially since there are several nusah Ashkenaz minyanim in one shul, an Aram Soba minyan, a nusah Sefard minyan, and a yeshibah all within one community.

laudible, not required but use your brains.



according to our rav if it's one man and one woman who are potentially compatible and not an issue situation (no yichud, etc.) according to halacha, it is suggested to do it this way.


What if it's quite a walk.


In general, a person should know where they daven and about when it starts/ends and know if at the shul the guest intends to daven is naturally later, is having a simcha, etc.

We have had guests warn us that they daven at a particular minyan and it ends late or has a simcha, etc. so we are prepared so can make kiddush earlier or decide how to plan our evening/day based on that info. I find it rude to not mention if you plan to walk 1/2 hour to a baby's kiddush and 1/2 hour back after socializing for 30+ minutes, without telling hosts.