http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...2150349/-1/NEWS

I found the gift list interesting.

They've been sending out pamphlets encouraging people to do this (and maybe sign that they would, to encourage others to join) for a while. I remember it being good bathroom reading.

People have been complaining about crazy wedding practices for years. In one Yiddish magazine, there was an article about a girl wanting a real diamond ring and then realizing that her father's health (free from money stress) was far more important. One wedding hall gives a big break for weddings that are over by midnight.

Especially in the chassidish world, where people have huge families, big weddings become REALLY big. And most of the guests aren't even interested in being there, but feel that they have to.

The gift list (before these takanos) is pretty crazy. But then again, so are the super-long no-meeting engagement periods.

The reasons these rules have become necessary is:

1. It's a society that encourages an unhealthy attitude with regard to money. Not working for a living + tax evasion and using government programs as a standard way of life does not add up to understanding how to budget for an event like a wedding.

2. Already people are trying to outdo each other in other religious areas (ie: getting the most expensive streimel/esrog/sukkah) - this is just an extension of that.

3. It's a community that has an unusual amount of peer pressure since conformity is idealized.

I think in general takkanot are far more likely to be successful when they are applied to everyone from the firstborn of the maidservant who is behind the mill to the firstborn of paroh. When Rabban Gamliel made his takkanah regarding burial shrouds, he himself was buried in one.

My father showed me a news article about this Friday night and I said "By Monday this will be the big topic on h.com"....

I was very surprised about the cubic zirconia rule. I was also surprised nothing was said about shtreimels- maybe thats covered under "accessories"?

What I think is ridiculous is that the parents are expected to buy the couple a brand new dining room set, living room set and bedroom set. When I got married we bought our own furniture and got it second hand. (Still haven't gotten around to getting a dining room set, and the second-hand table that we've had for 13 years is literally on its last legs).


ETA: Hashkcoffee, I see you!

I think it's actually pretty cool. One of my friends is semi chasidish and her folks got her a gorgeous matching furniture set. She said in her world it's expected. It's also fairly practical. I mean why start off with crud that you slowly replace instead of investing in a nice furniture set in the very beginning that will last you a lifetime?

Also, these parents aren't paying for college.

Out of context:




With regard to the streimels, I recall that on h.com it was revealed that some sects allow artificial fur nowadays. I guess the cubic zirconium of headgear.

*shrug. If they can afford it then maybe it's a good investment for them, but I would never have expected my parents to spend that much. Also, I wouldnt' relish the thought of having to buy a full house of furniture for each of my children when we can barely afford to buy a set for ourselves. Thirdly, it sets up a certain set of societal expectations. I can hold my head up in the community and live quite happily even though I only own an old table and folding chairs*, but if you live in a community where a brand new set "is expected," then if you don't have it you feel lower than dirt.

The type of people who pay for college only have 2 kids. And if you reallly want to go to college you take out loans and work your way through.

*which I won in a Chinese Auction. I am NOT joking.

Yup.

A dear Satmar friend has just informed me that they get a dining room set and a bedroom set but NOT a living room set. My bad. Also, there are "Chasunah malls" where furniture can be had cheaply.

Actually, those are covered under "it's a man's world".

Because kids will destroy most of that furniture, nice furniture is not a necessity, the money could be better spent on any number of things.

What's next?? Pleather Tefillin

Actually Satmer does not encourage Kollel AT ALL.

When we got married, our dining room set consisted of some mismatched Ikea plastic folding chairs and an old Ikea table which, to give you an idea of the size, is now used as a sewing table. Our bedroom set consisted of 4 mattresses, two sets of two one on top of another on the floor. Nothing wrong with couples using proverbial milk crate furniture*. Now there's also nothing wrong with families that have a lot of money setting up their kids with what they can afford - no reason people with money should purposefully withhold from their newly married children [actually, there is, but that's for another discussion: I think there is indeed value to withholding from children if the purpose is to build character].
But what I don't understand is people in supposed poverty where 61.7% of families are below the poverty line who essentially impose these types of newlywed setups as entitlements and societal expectations.


* provided the milk crates aren't stolen from the milk company or the store.

(By the way, people pay for college even with more than 2 kids. But in Canada tuition is more like state college tuition, and dorming isn't the big thing like it is in the states)

I think these rules are dumb. If someone wants a nice wedding and has the means to put it on, and for them it is a priority that things look nice and that there is a large band with beautiful music, and they have lots of friends who they want to share the simcha with, -- or they have business partners who they feel they have to invite -- what in the world is wrong with that? Go for it, make it special for everyone.

People who are poor and cannot afford a big wedding should not be morons and mortgage their house just to keep up with the Cohens. Use common sense.

And the gift list is beyond idiotic.

Going without certainly does build character. But I think you're overlooking something. Part of the appeal of getting married for these girls is all the trimmings. It's not like they're marrying for love and how they live after doesn't matter. The parents set her up and she barely knows the guy. The wedding/apartment stuff is what makes it worthwhile. Why else marry some guy your parents chose for you and have one kid a year for the rest of your reproductive life?

Yeah, right, it's all about the tchochkes and playing house. Might as well get the nicest playhouse furniture you can get.

Anyway, my Satmar informant told me that in many cases the girl pays for the furniture with her own earnings. That changes the picture for me.

I agree with you. If they can help out by giving some old furniture, great, but why should their parents be responsible for buying them new furniture for the entire home? Why can't the couple save and buy furniture as they are able like other people do? If that means living with old furniture or cheap IKEA furniture until they are able to upgrade to something nicer....so be it.

Yes, and it's important for adult children to learn early on that they need to work for things and that not everthing will be handed to them on a silver plate. I think it's important to instill self-sufficiency. I know wealthy families where the kids were handed everything and they are not necessarily the most productive or responsible people as adults.

While it's true that dorming isn't quite as prevalent in Canada as in the U.S., going away is much more common today in Canada than you might think (even at CHAT, where only approx. 37% of graduates stayed in Toronto and even the #1 school they are choosing is outside the city, see stats below).

CHAT University Stats

IKEA has good furniture.

Speaking as someone who lives very simply (small apartment, second-hand furniture, no car etc.) I would say this may be true but with a lot of qualifiers. It really depends on what your standard of living is, how realistic your goals and expectations are, whether you are actively pursuing your goals and just need a boost, versus waiting for someone else to make things happen for you. I certainly don't intend to support my children when they're grown up, but if I had the means I would spend it to help them meet their basic needs rather than on luxury goods for myself.

As has been stated many times before, the majority of chassidish people work for a living. And I note that you have, yet again, managed to make chassidish people out to be brainless and naive about everyday life. Good job.

I'd also point out that keeping up with the Joneses is an affliction that touches nearly every part of middle class American society, from the Modern Orthodox to the Yeshivish to the Chassidish, from Long Island to Monsey to Brooklyn, and that's just in the observant Jewish community. The non Jewish world does plenty of keeping up with the Joneses, too.



Most people start out in small apartments and trying to fit large beds + dressers + tables and chairs + couches into a couple of rooms is extremely impractical. Not to mention that by the time the couple starts using the furniture in earnest (entertaining guests, accomodating a large family), the matching set will be hopelessly outdated and probably have lost its niceness.

I feel the same way about newlyweds who buy (or receive) two or three sets of china and silverware that serve 18+. Unless you can afford it and will make sincere use of it, it's a waste of money.



My parents bedroom "set" is still two mattresses on two box springs on the floor.

why is it exclusive to chassidishe families? (we bought the bedroom set with the chasunah money, kitchen table and chairs was a present, the sefarim shrank - someone was getting rid, got it for free (but it's really beautiful), and the dining room table is from someone's sukkah (still here) )

i think these rules are good, cause it did seem to getting out of hand. also, as far as i heard, chassidim don't invite for the chuppah only, so the numbers add up.

i don't remember which chassidus it was (maybe in israel?), but their rebbe told the shteimel (or spondik) manufactures that if they will keep on raising their prices, he'll tell his chassidim to stop wearing them.

cuvic zirconia is interesting, though.

Actually that is exactly what people have been doing, hence the importance of this takanah.

But they have nothing to offer for the chassidishe esthetic...

My opinion (and not just vis-a-vis chassidim...) is that the first priority should be to have the necessary furniture/appliances and if the families have lots of money available they can buy the new couple other nice gifts like clothes or a nice car. Weddings are a major waste of money for the sake of appearances...
Maybe in the demographic that has mixed weddings they can be justified as a way for singles to mingle and meet their bashert, but for the demographic that has a mechitzah the weddings are really pointless... Light refreshments should be more than enough.

takanah doesn't protect against idiocy.

Agreed. I know of a situation where someone made a simcha and only had out of town guests for the meal, including their best friends, and the rav that told them this advice, etc. This way it really worked!



My parents didn't buy us any furniture other than our beds. I was going to pay for them, but my father told me not to worry about it. That and one used dresser from a 'pawn type shop' was all we actually bough. Everything else was second hand.


Often because you don't have the space for a full dining room set in your first apt.


This is what my parents did when they were first married. Sat on floor with crates for shabbos seudah.


I rarely listen to the radio but this morning I wanted to get the weather so I turned it on and since the young charge that likes Kivi/Tuki wasn't in the car, I listened for the weather (which is supposed to get even colder) and the news station was talking about how so many people are looking like they have $$ but are really living way below their means... (and women don't leave their husband because they can't afford to).

Well, let's say it can diminish the effects of idiocy.

A friend of mine married someone chassidish and the ILs insisted on taking her furniture shopping. In theory, it's a nice thing, but her apt is tiny so she didn't want to get furniture yet, there's no point. But, as she told me 'they have all these rules'.