A guy takes a girl to a steakhouse on a date. Are there any "rules" about what she can or can't order?

1) Her order total must not exceed her age. For instance, a 20-year old girl would not be allowed to order both a minute steak at $18.50 plus a large coke at $2.00.

2) She must order less than the boy does, in terms of both food quantity and price.

3) She must finish eating before he does.

4) She must not eat meat. Chicken okay, meat not okay. A soup or salad is preferred.

5) She must excuse herself to the restroom at least once so they guy can eat like a human being for at least a couple of minutes.

6) While taking said break she must make sure her hair and makeup are in order.

7) She must pass the ketchup if so asked.

8) She must not play "footsie" even if the tablecloth is long and nobody can see under.

9) She must not slurp with the straw when it gets down to the end of the drink.

10) She must not take these rules seriously, as I just made them up.

That's the one I was looking for. I know you were joking, but do some guys view this as a rule?

Although I don't think number 10 is serious.

Honestly I have no clue, it sounds preposterous to me. I would guess that there may be plenty of guys who in fact prefer it if the girl eats meat.

Wait, they go to a STEAKhouse and he expects her to get a caesar salad? Don't you see something wrong with this picture?

It sounds preposterous to me too, but after a guy took me to a steakhouse, and I ordered a steak, a friend was HORRIFIED (that's an understatement) that I did that. Why would he take me a steakhouse if I'm not allowed to order a steak? I don't get the logic. And I don't do salads in restaurants. What a waste.


I sure do, but I'm just making sure that I'm not crazy.

No.

Steak is fine. I think there is more of a stigma against steak amongst women than there is men - women see it as "unrefined", while most men quite frankly don't CARE what you order (just as long as it's not the single most expensive thing on the menu). You're allowed to finish your plate too. I do know some women who give thought to what they order for reasons of neatness (spaghetti marinara splatters and so on), but I think it's ridiculous to let your date dictate your eating habits.

The question is - if ordering a steak bothers the guy, what does that say about him? Is he cheap, and hoping you'll order a relatively inexpensive salad? Is he controlling? Does he carry around a lot of misconceptions about women, which he would probably try to apply to a new wife as well?

Chicks earn points in my book if they're not afraid to order normal food and eat it.
Now if they ordered a $250 bottle of wine, I might get upset.....

There is absolutely no rule.

You do realize that there is no such thing as "rules" in the first place? You can say "people do such and such," but there are no rules. It's not halacha; it's not minhag; it's nothing and there's no reason to follow what other people do, unless you want to be a Stepford Jew.

(When I've gone to steakhouses I've always ordered a chicken dish because it's cheaper.)

Of course I realize that; notice rules is in quotes.


Why are you being so nice to him?

In which case, you've answered your own question.


You think that's so nice? It's usually only a difference of a few of dollars, which basically makes it a gesture rather than a real kindness.

The idea is that since I'm not likely to ever see this guy again, why should I make him pay for an expensive meal? I've known girls who actually liked dating so that they could get free meals; I'm not one of them.

Perhaps the Steakhouse Dinner, if it's so choshuv, should occur later in the Dating Scheme of Things.

Is she so nervous that all she can get down is a few lettuce leaves? Or have things changed since i was going out .....

Does she not want to look gluttunous ?

Who is he? I know there are jerky guys out there, but this is hard to believe



If most items on the menu range from $20-$30, then there is the duck which is $50 it is a real jerk move to order duck (unless you are ready to bear his children) Anything else is perfectly reasonable. If you are 100% sure you aren't going to go on a second date, it would be courteous to order something on the cheap end of the menu.

ETA: as RH said, this is completely an inappropriate place to take a 1st date

She should not order lobster. Or ask for butter or sour cream for her baked potato.


I actually am more impressed with girls who have bladders larger than an olive. It bothers me if a girl excuses herself to go to the bathroom every hour during a date.

I disagree. Once I suggested a steakhouse and my SDJ sounded absolutely delighted -- as though every other girl had been suggesting milchig places and he was sick of soups and salads. Another time my SDJ suggested a steakhouse.

God forbid you should ever get diarrhea


I think restaurants are inappropriate for first dates. Not that specific type of restaurant. I think a trip to Starbucks or something is more like it.

I was taken to a steakhouse on a first date once, but the guy ordered for me ( ), thereby taking away any "what to order" questions.

You have to understand many guys are told that a woman would appreciate a guy ordering for them. I think the problem is that whoever told the guy what to do, failed to mention that he should order for you once you have decided what you want.
(yea, that really sucks. Did you like what he ordered?)

(I didn't care that much, but it was a DOA, and I figured that avoiding the conversation could get me home five minutes earlier.)

nrh, I agree with Psychodad- order whatever you want as long as it isn't well above the price of the average dish.

I was never in a fancy NY steakhouse before! See, I don't like steak. I had been told that I don't like it because I never tasted it prepared well. So I figured that this was my opportunity to test that theory.


I guess I broke the rule then...


That was his choice. What did he expect if he took me to a steakhouse?


So then in that case I did okay.

Why should there be certain rules or etiquette in a steakhouse, aside from proper manners?

When in Rome do as the Romans do. If he's eating steak and you feel inclined to eat steak also, get one. I personally think it's curteous when going out with someone who is treating you (who is not your husband) that you try to stay within the budget he's set for himself. If he's ordering the rib-eye, that opens up your prospects. I do this not out of niceties, but more because I don't want anyone to think I "owe" them anything because they bought me an expensive steak.

I agree with RH, I was always too nervous on dates to really eat and my stomach didn't want to tolerate something heavy. The main reason of a date is to TALK to the person, you might not be in the mood to eat a whole meal and nothing is more impolite than having someone take you out to eat and for you to nibble around the edges. And it's tacky to take something home in a doggy bag on a date.

I'm going to against the grain and say that salad is not always a good choice. I have a hard time personally eating salad nicely, as it doesn't have solid chunks that fit nicely on the fork in mouth sized peices. Leaves fall off, oily dressing drips. Yuck. I usually go for something soild, like grilled veggies or chicken.

she should offer to pay.

No more than on any other date. She should try to make a good impression and be polite at all times.



I think ordering a steak might show a guy that you appreciate his choice of restaurant.



Yeah, I do that all the time. If you're the type who's going to get bits of steak stuck between your teeth and then be trying to pick at them with your tongue for the next hour, you might want to go with a chicken dish.

wow, i never gave ordering so much thoughts before



why not?



if people are going out to eat on the first date anyway, i see no reason to ignore the steakhouse.

why would she look gluttunous? cause she is actually eating during the dinner time, as opposed to picking on the lettuce leaves?



she might want to check on her make up/reapply lipstick.



did he ask you if the order is ok with you, right then?



did you like it? (i don't care for steak or any other fleishig stuff; can't say don't like them, just would prefer milchig if given the choice)

I don't remember. It wasn't so thrilling. I like soft food, and steak isn't soft.

This thread is a disaster, I keep craving a great steak I had in a great NYC steakhouse like two weeks ago. I feel like a lion; I'm visualizing this meat.

Which steakhouse? Maybe it was the same place.

Turning it around, if I went out on a date and I ordered steak and the guy ordered a salad and a Perrier I'd be very unimpressed...

Good steak, if it's cut thick and cooked medium rare is very soft. Try it sometime...

Le Marais

Funny, I never thought their steaks were spectacular. Try Wolf & Lamb for similar quality and less expense.

Really? I didn't like their steaks so much... They have other good stuff though.

I've found them to be consistently good. I didn't care for Les Marais; the food or the atmosphere (not to mention the fact that it isn't remotely child-friendly). I've had better steak by Solo, and better 'other dishes' at Abigaels.

I have seen kids at LM, but I think it's too elegant for them to be truly kid-friendly. W&L is much easier to eat in. I wasn't impressed with Solo - overpriced and overrated, and I was only in Abigaels once, years ago. NYC does have some fine dining spots, yes SIR.

Solo is VERY overpriced, but that's upscale frum restaurants in general. Les Marais is near impossible to navigate with a stroller, and they cram you in once the dinner rush arrives. The owner at W&L is super nice, and as I said, service and food has always been consistently good (though not *amazing*...I don't think I've ever had amazing food at any kosher establishment).

Okay, I'm done hijacking.

LOL once when I was back in NY, I visited some of my non frum friends back from High School and they were all drinking who knows what. But I was REALLY thirsty and there happened to be Pelligrino in the fridge, so I poured myself a large glass. One of my friends looked at me in horror and asked "What the hell did they do to you in Israel???"...
(For the record I didn't chas veshalom quit drinking, nor do I normally purchase or consume overpriced imported yuppie beverages, I was just REALLY thirsty and that was what was cold and available)

That said, I have a simple policy while dating that I am there to have a good time and since I have to eat anyway why not combine the two activities. I also don't see it as "wasting money" if it doesn't work out. It is part of the expense of getting married and what is $30 here or there in the large scheme of things??? It is basically a "write off". So if I am in a certain restaurant, I expect her to order what she likes and eat, otherwise I wouldn't have taken her there in the first place....

I don't understand the cheapskate theory of dating, unless you really ARE so poor that you don't have $30 to spare. And if so, don't go to expensive restaurants...

That's completely ludicrous. But it is kind of expected that you don't order the most expensive thing on the menu.


Oh for sure. Although if she gets the same thing that's fine too.


No. Eating slowly is ladylike.


Meat is yummy.


Makes sense.


Well duh. Did you really think women pee that often?


Common decency.


What if it's fun?


Well yeah.


Oh for sure. We bow to your wisdom.

Only when entering motor vehicles...

The two worst things one can do in a steakhouse is to

1. Refer to meat as "yummy" and method of preparation as "cook".
2. Order it medium or even worse, w3ll d0ne, tfu tfu bar minan.

Those two are worth walking right out.

Ordering ketchup with a dry aged steak is a close third.

Steak is yummy. And medium/well is delicious. Some of us don't like eating food that looks like it was just cut off the animal two minutes ago.


What is the correct condiment for steak then?

There's a saying that those who like their steaks well done, don't like steak. It's kind of like asking the waiter if they can please cook the tartare.


The correct condiment for steak is no condiment. Again, if you have to slather it with BBQ sauce, ketchup, and the like, you don't really like steak. It's far cheaper in those cases to simply order a hamburger sans the bun.

No and No...


Salt and pepper... If you need anything else the steak isn't worth eating...

Sorry. Some things are a matter of taste, but this is not one of them. You are just wrong.

I'm going to have to defend Brianna on this one. I've eaten quite a few steaks in my day. Medium/Well is quite good and is much more preferable to medium/rare.

It is always a jerk move to eat duck. I'm against the eating of cute animals in principle...

this is probably going to make it to the understanding women thread...

I DAVKA ordered duck at the "Essex" meet for that very reason....

Nah. Ordering ketchup with a good steak isn't illegal... BUT IT SHOULD BE!!

There are right and wrong ways to eat Hamburg steak btw... and somthering it with ketchup is not one of the right ones...