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krumlikeapretzel
Due to a combination of my personality and a series of bad experiences, I've become somewhat fearful, and definitely hostile to authority figures... This is one of the things that bother me about most Jewish philosophies/groups. I'm not even going to mention the frum world and OPS since they've been discussed ad nauseam here. But it seems that almost everything else is tied up with being followers. Zionism seems to me like a glorification of the state, the army and all the authority figures that come with that, hence I'm turned off by it. Conservative and Reform Judaism are run by giant bureaucracies and endless committees...
Am I wrong?

Is there any individualistic approach to Judaism?
err
No.

I'm sure there are charlatans who have used sophistry to create one, though.
Moshi
I don't understand the question. Why does this matter to you? Get closer to Hashem, pray, do mitzvos, and be happy. Why should there be some kind of "individualistic approach"?
Shemmy
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Feb 20 2008, 12:33 AM) *
Due to a combination of my personality and a series of bad experiences, I've become somewhat fearful, and definitely hostile to authority figures... This is one of the things that bother me about most Jewish philosophies/groups...Am I wrong?


I do not believe you are wrong at all. While I'm nowhere near an expert on Jewish history, it seems that today's focus on governing boards or following individuals religiously is a far cry from how things "should" be. Of course, there are certain factors which prevent a return to a Sanhedrin-centred "government," but I would still say that we rely too much on what other people either do or tell us to do (or not to do) and too little on the self.

QUOTE
Is there any individualistic approach to Judaism?


Why not just simply focus on halachah and mussar, or something along those lines? That's generally what I try to do, in my overall dissatisfaction with Judaism as a culture and religion. I've found that approaching it while rooted in a different frame of reference helps quite a bit.
Jeanette
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Feb 20 2008, 12:33 AM) *
Is there any individualistic approach to Judaism?

What Moshi said. The authority figures aspect really only enters into play if you want to be accepted as a member of a particular Jewish community. I know a lot of people who follow an eclectic approach and are comfortable in a wide range of communities without being overtly identified as a member of any of them.

Find me a source that says one must identify with a particular community. (I know al tifrosh min hatzibur but I understand it to mean not to turn away from the needs and concerns of the community, not that one must conform to the community in every respect. Although I'm sure there are those who dispute that interpretation.)
existwhere?
Aseh lecha rav [v'histalek min hasafek]
Gabbe
QUOTE (krumlikeapretzel @ Feb 20 2008, 12:33 AM) *
Due to a combination of my personality and a series of bad experiences, I've become somewhat fearful, and definitely hostile to authority figures...This is one of the things that bother me about most Jewish philosophies/groups.

Whenever you have a group of people with some sort of ideal, you're going to get some sort of leader. A group cannot function otherwise; just watch the Apprentice.
So no, there is no individualistic approach to anything; the only real solution is to try as hard as hell to be one of the leaders.
Anyway, Judaism was structured like that from the start. First we had Moshe, then we had Yehoshua etc., then we had the Sanhedrin, which sort of faded out and gave way to Tannaim and Amoraim who were eventually fossilized in the Gemara, which is essentially an enormous authority figure.

(Note that political leaders (like Kings) were considered a gigantic bedieved)
Goldfish
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 21 2008, 11:03 AM) *
Whenever you have a group of people with some sort of ideal, you're going to get some sort of leader. A group cannot function otherwise; just watch the Apprentice.

Yeah, and just watch the Apprentice to see what happens when you get a crummy leader -- someone who doesn't know how to lead, doesn't make good decisions, doesn't know how to utilize his people, etc. Invariably that team loses.
Gabbe
QUOTE (Jeanette @ Feb 20 2008, 09:09 PM) *
What Moshi said. The authority figures aspect really only enters into play if you want to be accepted as a member of a particular Jewish community. I know a lot of people who follow an eclectic approach and are comfortable in a wide range of communities without being overtly identified as a member of any of them.

Find me a source that says one must identify with a particular community. (I know al tifrosh min hatzibur but I understand it to mean not to turn away from the needs and concerns of the community, not that one must conform to the community in every respect. Although I'm sure there are those who dispute that interpretation.)

QUOTE (Rambam H. Aku"m Ch. 12)
יח [יד] ובכלל אזהרה זו, שלא יהו שני בתי דינין בעיר אחת, זה נוהג במנהג, וזה נוהג במנהג אחר--שדבר זה גורם למחלוקת גדולה: וכתוב "לא תתגודדו" (דברים יד,א), לא תיעשו אגודות אגודות.

QUOTE (Rambam H. Teshuva Ch. 3)
כ [יא] הפורש מדרכי ציבור: אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות, אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצוות בכללן ולא נכנס בצרתן ולא מתענה בתעניתן, אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מגויי הארץ, וכאילו אינו מהן--אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.
shaya_getzl
As mentioned before, we have surrendered all institutional authority, in any way, form or fashion, several thousands years ago, and it's not coming back in any shape, form or fashion until the better days. Any delusion to the otherwise is indeed a delusion. All authority acceptance is voluntary, and thus allegiances can be shifted or relegated at will with the maximum punishment of some ostracizing, which one will get anyway.
Gabbe
QUOTE (shaya_getzl @ Feb 21 2008, 02:01 PM) *
As mentioned before, we have surrendered all institutional authority, in any way, form or fashion, several thousands years ago...

Have we? What do you call that horribly expensive stack of tomes that say Talmud Bably in the cover?
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