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Moshi
So the tefillin shel yad has this little cover. For some reason I've always had the idea that one is to leave that cover on when you wrap the tefillin. What is it for? It often falls of and it's a little annoying. It's oddly shaped, too, with a circle for a hole on the top. huh2.gif
melech
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 20 2008, 09:42 AM) *
So the tefillin shel yad has this little cover. For some reason I've always had the idea that one is to leave that cover on when you wrap the tefillin. What is it for? It often falls of and it's a little annoying. It's oddly shaped, too, with a circle for a hole on the top. huh2.gif

Kabbalistically, the tefillah shel yad is supposed to be covered, as opposed to the tefillah shel rosh. The paper cover ensures the bayit is covered even if you don't pull your sleeve down over the tefillah shel yad (think [certain demographic] men who wear their jackets like a cape, for example). Now the problem is that your tefillin must be fully exposed when saying the berachah, so that puts you between a rock and a hard place - in theory, you technically really need to take that cover off when saying the berachah. So one way of getting around the problem is to cover it, but leave a hole. That way we're not too inconvenienced and we have plausible deniability: We can pretend the cover is a cover, but we can also pretend it's not a cover. See how nicely "halachic" observance works?
Gabbe
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 20 2008, 09:42 AM) *
So the tefillin shel yad has this little cover. For some reason I've always had the idea that one is to leave that cover on when you wrap the tefillin. What is it for? It often falls of and it's a little annoying. It's oddly shaped, too, with a circle for a hole on the top. huh2.gif

It's to protect the corners of the tefillin from rubbing out. The hole on top is to facilitate kissing the tefillin during Shema and whatnot.
I was specifically taught not to use it.
Tova
I understand that it's to protect the tefillin shel yad from being damaged, as a nick or marring of the corners could cause it to be passul.

[I've heard that the "little tefillin cover" sometimes falls off easily.]
Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 09:48 AM) *
Kabbalistically, the tefillah shel yad is supposed to be covered, as opposed to the tefillah shel rosh. The paper cover ensures the bayit is covered even if you don't pull your sleeve down over the tefillah shel yad (think [certain demographic] men who wear their jackets like a cape, for example). Now the problem is that your tefillin must be fully exposed when saying the berachah, so that puts you between a rock and a hard place - in theory, you technically really need to take that cover off when saying the berachah. So one way of getting around the problem is to cover it, but leave a hole. That way we're not too inconvenienced and we have plausible deniability: We can pretend the cover is a cover, but we can also pretend it's not a cover. See how nicely "halachic" observance works?

AFAIK, the shel Rosh is supposed to be covered, kaballistically. The BY argues.
As for the rest of your info, I'd like to know where you got it from, because it doesn't make much sense to me and sounds like agenda-pushing.

QUOTE (Tova @ Feb 20 2008, 09:49 AM) *
I understand that it's to protect the tefillin shel yad from being damaged, as a nick or marring of the corners could cause it to be passul.

[I've heard that the "little tefillin cover" sometimes falls off easily.]

I think the only way to really invalidate tefillin for reason of not being ravua is if you hit it with a sledgehammer.
melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 09:53 AM) *
AFAIK, the shel Rosh is supposed to be covered, kaballistically. The BY argues.

Depends how one spins the Ar"i, I suppose.

QUOTE
As for the rest of your info, I'd like to know where you got it from, because it doesn't make much sense to me and sounds like agenda-pushing.

First let me know who says you're supposed to kiss the tefillin during shema- I thought it says, yimashmesh, one touches them, but that can be done even with the box on so the hole isn't necessary.



doodlehead
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 09:59 AM) *
First let me know who says you're supposed to kiss the tefillin during shema- I thought it says, yimashmesh, one touches them, but that can be done even with the box on so the hole isn't necessary.


The hole is for the leather not to rot from lack of air.

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Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 09:59 AM) *
Depends how one spins the Ar"i, I suppose.

<shrug> Azoi shteit in some Sephardi pictorial tallis guide.
QUOTE
First let me know who says you're supposed to kiss the tefillin during shema- I thought it says, yimashmesh, one touches them, but that can be done even with the box on so the hole isn't necessary.

How can you touch tefillin if there's a box on them?
melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:10 AM) *
<shrug> Azoi shteit in some Sephardi pictorial tallis guide.

How can you touch tefillin if there's a box on them?

How can you touch tefillin when there's a sleeve covering your arm? Yet nobody is going to say to davka not pull your sleeve over your arm in order that you can touch the tefillah shel yad. In any event, "yimashmesh" doesn't mean that you literally need to touch the leather of the bayit with your finger. It means you should feel the presence of the tefillin in order that you are reminded of their presence. That can be done regardless if there's a box or even a sleeve covering the tefillah shel yad.
Gabbe
QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 10:07 AM) *
The hole is for the leather not to rot from lack of air.

That's ridiculous because:
  1. Ventilation promotes rotting, not prevents it.
  2. The box is not going to help in any case.
  3. Even if 1 and 2 did not apply, what prevents the non-hole exposed parts from rotting?
doodlehead
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:15 AM) *
That's ridiculous because:
  1. Ventilation promotes rotting, not prevents it.
  2. The box is not going to help in any case.
  3. Even if 1 and 2 did not apply, what prevents the non-hole exposed parts from rotting?

If not rot, than mold, or some other stuff that happens when leather doesnt get enough air. (dry out? crack? fade? peel? )

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melech
By the way, note the little ventilation holes on the bottom of the plastic tefillin cases. I assume that's so any moisture from sweat on the bottom of the titura isn't retained.
Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 10:13 AM) *
How can you touch tefillin when there's a sleeve covering your arm? Yet nobody is going to say to davka not pull your sleeve over your arm in order that you can touch the tefillah shel yad.

Nobody in general or nobody you know? When is the last time you davened in a yeshivah or a shteibel where you'd have the opportunity to see that the reason they wear their jackets like capes is specifically to allow easy access to the tefillin?
QUOTE
In any event, "yimashmesh" doesn't mean that you literally need to touch the leather of the bayit with your finger. It means you should feel the presence of the tefillin in order that you are reminded of their presence. That can be done regardless if there's a box or even a sleeve covering the tefillah shel yad.

Says you.

QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 10:17 AM) *
If not rot, than mold, or some other stuff that happens when leather doesnt get enough air. (dry out? crack? fade? peel?)

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Doesn't answer the Third Question.
doodlehead
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:21 AM) *
Doesn't answer the Third Question.

The point was that we cover the top, once we cover it we allow it air.

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melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:21 AM) *
Nobody in general or nobody you know? When is the last time you davened in a yeshivah or a shteibel where you'd have the opportunity to see that the reason they wear their jackets like capes is specifically to allow easy access to the tefillin?

Says you.

So find me an opinion that we should wear our jackets like capes davka so we can literally touch the bayit directly because I can find for you opinions that the sleeve should be pulled down, which means they are assuming yimashmesh can be done through the sleeve.
Gabbe
QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 10:24 AM) *
The point was that we cover the top, once we cover it we allow it air.

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So fine, your tefillin will mold except for that one circle.
Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 10:26 AM) *
So find me an opinion that we should wear our jackets like capes davka so we can literally touch the bayit directly.

Find me an opinion that yimashmesh means "not necessarily the leather." You're the one who is arguing for a "non-literal interpretation" of yimashmesh.
Also, would you argue for a similar interpretation of "yimashmesh" in SA OC 8:10? (page 64 here)
Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 10:26 AM) *
...because I can find for you opinions that the sleeve should be pulled down, which means they are assuming yimashmesh can be done through the sleeve...

Hit me.
(Anyway, we can sit here and argue about it, but the definition of yimashmesh is just a straw man)
melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:35 AM) *
Find me an opinion that yimashmesh means "not necessarily the leather." You're the one who is arguing for a "non-literal interpretation" of yimashmesh.

It has to be nonliteral because those who say the sleeve should be pulled down must hold it's nonliteral.

QUOTE
Also, would you argue for a similar interpretation of "yimashmesh" in SA OC 8:10? (page 64

No, but there's no inyan to cover the tzitzit strings on the tallit. But ein hachi nami, if you're one of those people who think a tallit kattan should be obscured, and you put it on before mi-she-yakir, and now it's time to make the berachah, and you will not be wearing a tallit gadol, then maybe perhaps indeed there's no need to physically touch the strings with your hands. Maybe indeed it's permitted to shift them under your other clothes. I have no idea.
Pinchas
The secret to getting the little box to stay on is to use a rubberband but not how you think. Remove the little box and put the rubber band directly around the tefillin. Then place the little box on top of that and it will fit nice and smug.

It's better not to use a rubber band that is too tight though as that could wear out the corners. What I did is I cut the rubber band and then glued it back together the exact size needed yet not too tight so there is no pressure on the corners.
Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 10:42 AM) *
It has to be nonliteral because those who say the sleeve should be pulled down must hold it's nonliteral.

I'd like to know who these people are, since they aren't the Rema, probably Mechaber, GRA, or Magen Avraham. (pg 131 of the aforementioned PDF)
Then we can discuss whether they hold if not geluyin means "covered and inaccessible via the jacket" or simply "not exposed."
melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:52 AM) *
I'd like to know who these people are, since they aren't the Rema, probably Mechaber, GRA, or Magen Avraham. (pg 131 of the aforementioned PDF)

R. Moshe Shternbuch and R. SZ Aurebach, if I recall correctly off the top of my head. According to them, again to the best of my recollection that is was specifically them, it's not kavodik to wear your jacket with the sleeve rolled up.
melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:52 AM) *
Then we can discuss whether they hold if not geluyin means "covered and inaccessible via the jacket" or simply "not exposed."

I would guess "not exposed". They don't davka have to be inaccessible, that's just a byproduct of the way our jacket sleeves are manufactured. But they can be inaccessible.
Kalashnikover_Rebbe
I think most people wear their jackets that way because either the tefillin won't fit in the sleeve, or it will move out of place.
I can wear some of my jackets normally with tefilin and some of them I have trouble....

Maybe they should have a demo pair of tefillin in the suit store for when you try it on.......
doodlehead
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 10:26 AM) *
So fine, your tefillin will mold except for that one circle.

Nah, the whole thing gets air.

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Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 10:54 AM) *
R. Moshe Shternbuch and R. SZ Aurebach, if I recall correctly off the top of my head. According to them, again to the best of my recollection that is was specifically them, it's not kavodik to wear your jacket with the sleeve rolled up.

I think you better check that up. Anyway, "not kavodik to wear your jacket with the sleeve rolled up" is not equal wearing the sleeve down. There is the cape-jacket option, or the "drape the unused half of the jacket over your back and rope it down with a gartel option." Of course, you can just reach inside your sleeve via the lapel and touch your tefillin. Thousands of people manage to reach their tefillin every day while wearing jackets; I don't see why this is a problem.

QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 10:57 AM) *
But they can be inaccessible.

Not if you want to be "memashmesh" them.

QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 12:32 PM) *
Nah, the whole thing gets air.

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So why doesn't it get air via the bottom?
Moshi
Gabbe- do you pull a sleeve over your box-less tefillin? What if you are wearing smth short-sleeve that doesn't really cover the tefillin?

Melech- do you keep the little box on? do you pull your sleeve over it? what if you're wearing smth short-sleeve?
melech
smile.gif
Gabbe
QUOTE (Moshi @ Feb 20 2008, 01:32 PM) *
Gabbe- do you pull a sleeve over your box-less tefillin? What if you are wearing smth short-sleeve that doesn't really cover the tefillin?

It depended on the shirt. If it were short-sleeved, then I wouldn't. If the sleeve could fit over the tefillin, then I would, but I would roll the (shirt) sleeve up before Shema. (When I wore jackets I would have no problem reaching in to touch the tefillin.)
I use the past tense because now the tallis usually covers it. But I'm really not makpid one way or the other.

QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 01:36 PM) *
I'm probably going to regret this but...personally, not that this is relevant at all to anything, but personally I take the box off when reciting the berachah and then put it on after, and I pull my sleeve over it. I don't wear short sleeves when davening meaning my arm isn't exposed. But it's irrelevant and I can't imagine why anyone would care.

Where does this halacha that the tefillin has to be exposed during the brachah come from?
Moshi
hmm.

what's the reason for needing to cover the arm tefillin, and why davka the arm one?
Gabbe
I don't know. To the best of my knowledge, this inyan was invented by melech.
melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 01:49 PM) *
I don't know. To the best of my knowledge, this inyan was invented by melech.

rolleyes.gif

Gabbe
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 01:56 PM) *
rolleyes.gif

Roll your cybereyes at me. All you've been able to show me is that maybe RShZA or RMSh held that you should wear your jacket like a mentch.
Moshi
who knew a tiny little box can be so controversial...
Pure Myrrh
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 01:49 PM) *
I don't know. To the best of my knowledge, this inyan was invented by melech.

Mamish the Internet is amazing.

1) From Wikipedia:

QUOTE
There is a custom to cover the arm-tefillin with the sleeve, in accordance with the verse "And they will be a sign to you...", i.e. to you and not to others.


2) From Google Books:

Page from Hilchos Tefillin book
Gabbe
Great. The best of my knowledge just got better. Now let's try and figure out where the MB got it.
doodlehead
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 01:23 PM) *
So why doesn't it get air via the bottom?

Are we talking about the same box? Theres no bottom. Its a box that covers the top of the shel yad, and for the covered part to get air it has a hole. What dont you get?

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Gabbe
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 02:28 PM) *
Great. The best of my knowledge just got better. Now let's try and figure out where the MB got it.

Elyah Rabba.

QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 02:36 PM) *
Are we talking about the same box? Theres no bottom. Its a box that covers the top of the shel yad, and for the covered part to get air it has a hole. What dont you get?

9

Why doesn't the air circulate via the open bottom?
doodlehead
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 02:41 PM) *
Why doesn't the air circulate via the open bottom?

Tfilin is made out of two boxes, a smaller one on top of a big one. Only the top one is covered by the 'tfilin cover box'. Where is it open?

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Gabbe

On the bottom.
doodlehead
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 02:53 PM) *

On the bottom.

Its flush against the bigger box. Remember? Its on the tfilin.

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Gabbe
QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 02:54 PM) *
Its flush against the bigger box. Remember? Its on the tfilin.

9

And the top isn't flush against the top of the smaller box?
Pinchas
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 08:36 PM) *
I'm probably going to regret this but...personally, not that this is relevant at all to anything, but personally I take the box off when reciting the berachah and then put it on after, and I pull my sleeve over it. I don't wear short sleeves when davening meaning my arm isn't exposed. But it's irrelevant and I can't imagine why anyone would care.


I asked my rebbi that - if I have to take off the little box when I make the berachah. He said absolutely not. I also don't know why anyone would care but I'm trying to pad my post count for those new flashy pipes.
doodlehead
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 03:16 PM) *
And the top isn't flush against the top of the smaller box?

No.

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melech
QUOTE (Pinchas @ Feb 20 2008, 03:17 PM) *
I asked my rebbi that - if I have to take off the little box when I make the berachah. He said absolutely not.

And he is correct.

doodlehead
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 03:18 PM) *
And he is correct.

You also like his rebbi?

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melech
QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 03:19 PM) *
You also like his rebbi?

9

I knew this was going to happen and I should not have mentioned what I do or don't do. I hold like his rebbi that it's not required.
doodlehead
QUOTE (melech @ Feb 20 2008, 03:29 PM) *
I knew this was going to happen and I should not have mentioned what I do or don't do. I hold like his rebbi that it's not required.

What if I tell you that his rebbi is a jew?

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Pinchas
QUOTE (doodlehead @ Feb 20 2008, 10:36 PM) *
What if I tell you that his rebbi is a jew?

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It's actually not the same Rebbi and the other Rebbi. This Rabbi was the Rebbi in camp when I was bar mitzvahed...

He is indeed a Jew also though.
melech
QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 09:53 AM) *
As for the rest of your info, I'd like to know where you got it from



Here is the Piskei Teshuvot. The hole is in order that the box covering not be considered a covering. Top right of the second page.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...efillin0001.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...efillin0002.jpg

Note two other things from the Piskei Teshuvot: The end of footnote 199 speaks to the issue of removing the box for the berachah. The only question is if the box is returned immediately after the shel yad is in place, or if that's a hefsek and one returns the box only after the tefillah shel Rosh is in place.
Also note that removing the box for the berachah is NOT halachah, and most are lenient, which is why I said that Pinchas' rebbi is correct when he said it's not required to do so.


QUOTE (Gabbe @ Feb 20 2008, 02:00 PM) *
maybe RShZA or RMSh held that you should wear your jacket like a mentch.

Here is R. Moshe Shternbuch in Hilchot HaGra U-minhagayv that it's appropriate to roll your sleeve back down over the shel yad because it's not kavodik otherwise, as I said:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...efillin0003.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...efillin0004.jpg


As for the inyan regarding that the tefillah shel yad should be covered, see above in the first two scans, the ones from the Piskei Teshuvot.
Regarding removing the little box during the actual berachah, again, that footnote 199 addressed the issue. There is more here from in the Chayei Moshe where it is the opinion of RSZ Aurebach and the Chazon Ish that it's perhaps laudable to do so:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v336/mel...efillin0005.jpg
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