If a family has a couple of single children (say ages 18-28), does it at all make sense to make the youngers sibs wait for the older one to get engaged/married, and so on? I know some families that have done it, and the only result is that they all get older and older... It's so depressing.

Do you know of people who have done this, or done the opposite and let them all date at the same time?

Edit: If you're an older sibling with younger ones, what would you want her/him to do?

I can't begin to understand the pettiness involved in forcing a younger sibling to wait to get married until the older one does. I would stay far away from someone with this extremely negative middah.

Life throws us some serious curve balls. Things don't always go as "planned."

Sometimes the younger sibling is more ready (and mature?) and has found an appropriate partner- instead of making them date (potentially) for years on end, it's a solution.

I do say it's a tough situation to not let younger siblings begin dating til the oldest (older in order) is married can be a recipe for disaster.

It may not be comfortable for the older siblings to have the younger marry first, but serious contempt, etc. could breed if the younger ones are prevented from dating and eventually marrying in this circumstance.

That said, people are human and not robots- what is good for one isn't for another and each case should be careful thought out.

A more biblical way of confronting this problem is letting the younger sibling get engaged, and then under the chuppah switch the older one for the younger one. Sometimes it works.

On a more serious note, do people do this waiting shtick differently for boys than girls? Especially since girls tend to mary younger, so like a 23-year old girl could be "older" than her 24-year old brother.

Things like this make me wonder if the so-called "shidduch crisis" is the system of shadhanut itself.

It doesn't make sense to me, why should the younger siblings have to wait?
I knew a girl in from a big family and 5 of her younger sibs got married and had kids before she found her bashert. But, she felt she had to move out of her small community because it was too hard to be around all the "well meaning" busybodies who constantly reminded her how nice she was that she let her sibs get married.

How sad.

Obviously you have never been an older sibling with a younger one catching up to you. Its not pettiness, its an extreme pain. Don't judge a person until you've been in their shoes.

I've been there and it hurts so much. It will continue to hurt until you yourself get married -- and that could be years. But you need to keep reminding yourself that making someone else unhappy is not the way to make yourself happy.

I'm sure it's painful but what if your younger sibling has a very prestigious job and you're just a shlepper? What if you get divorced and they're still happily married? What if they buy a big beautiful new house and you're still living in a farshvollene rented apartment? And the list goes on. At some point you have to let go and live your life for better or worse, without looking back at what your younger siblings are doing.

It really depends on how old the siblings are and how many siblings are involved. if the younger sister is 19 its fine to let her wait a year so her 21 year old sister has more of a chance. If the older sister is already 26 then it probably doesn't make sense to let the younger one wait, let her go ahead. Sisters have to ask mechila to go ahead.
Brothers don't have to wait for sisters, but it is nice if a 23 year old brother would wait a bit for his 22 or 24 year old sister. if things are not working for the sister then after a while you let them go.
A while meaning a year or less, not more. Its sad to see 23 year old sisters still waiting for the 25 year old one.

So it really depends on each scenario. I know a family with a 26 girl, a 25 boy and a 23 girl. They are all dating at the same time, however keep in mind there is only one mother taking care of all these shidduchim! She is more likely to pursue boys for her older daughter, therefore even if the older one gave permission to her younger sister she still ends up kind of waiting. (unless the 2 sister have drastically diff hashkofos and are looking for 2 diff things.)

Absolutely, I never said to keep the younger one waiting, I just meant that its not pettiness. Thats a harsh thing to say about someone going thru such hurt.

Yeah, I also don't understand the competition mentality. It is one thing if ALL your younger siblings are passing you by one by one, but why does everything have to go in order? Everyone has their own cheshbon it is not a contest. Things happen in their own time. Or they don't, but why should other people not get what they need just because YOU don't have it yet???

Why does it seem like frumkeit has become one gigantic Chinese Auction???

I stand by my statement. The presence of emotional distress does not preclude pettiness (it probably brings it out).

Why does someone have to ask mechila? What are they apologizing for?

So it's painful if a younger sister gets married first? wth!?

Yes, but only made them wait a year or two and if older wasn't married, let younger start dating.

I dated before two of my older siblings were married. Married before one of them.(the other one got married a few months before I did and is a few years older than me.)


Yes. This 'shtick' only applies for girls. No one cares about boys and if they get passed up by a girl.

In some chasidish families, (and I reiterate some, and by some I mean very few) they solve this problem with a "double shiduch".

ETA: Yes, I know I am providing an opening for chasidim-bashing. May I reiterate that 98% of chasidim condemn this.

I agree with this (and other similar expressed sentiments that I'm too lazy to quote). While it may be understandably difficult to watch your other siblings (or friends, relatives) get married around you, it is EXTREMELY childish and wrong to force everyone else to remain unmarried with you. It's so sad that marriage is seen as the be-all-and-end-all in the frum community - THAT is what is causing attitudes like this (as well as the "oh look at that poor unmarried nebuch" and the depression of older singles). I'm terribly saddened that the yiddishe velt is light years behind the goyim when it comes to middos in this area. If marriage were not The Single Most Important Thing You Will Ever Do and Without Which, You Are Useless, this topic would never have existed.

To the people who are decrying the pettiness of this situation: there is actually an inyan for a younger sibling not to get married before an older one. It's not only about feelings. In fact, if a younger and an older sibling are engaged at the same time, the older one is supposed to get married first. I know someone who made a four week engagement for the older one because she got engaged after the younger one and that was the only to fit her in.

In chassidish circles, a girl waits for her brother too, unlike yeshivish circles. This isn't so simple. Gedolim and Rabbanim often get involved in the decision to let the younger one date.

You're a married man. Clearly you cannot fathom the depths of a girl's pain when she is 25+ and unmarried while her sibling is 21 years old and married.

So trying to stop your younger sibling from dating/getting married is not petty. It may be wrong, but it's not petty.

And I stand by my statement, you've obviously never been an older sibling.

The younger one has to ask for mechila for going ahead of her sister. Simple as that. its written, I can find the source if you'd like. Some say she is asking mechila for causing her older sister pain.

Until recently younger sisters were NOT allowed to go before older ones, the Chachamim did not allow it based on the possuk in beraishis 29:26.
However now in the darker times of golus there are a certain amount of neshomos who must be brought into the world. if they are to be brought by the younger sister then the sages now allow it ONLY with the understanding that the older sister is in complete consent and forgives her sister whole heartedly.

Nice posts, ice blue and goldfish.

What in heaven's name is a double shidduch? Two sisters to two brothers? Two sisters to the same guy?

A jerk is a jerk whether it's based on the social structures of Aram 1000 BCE, Rome 150 CE, or America 2008 CE.

Personal pain and distress allow for mature people to rise above their own situations and see the needs of others. Try some personal growth. You might like it.

This is what I love about men -- the way they really listen when women talk.

what is a double shidduch?

what about cousins? i was told i couldn't date before my cousin, who is a year older than me, by my yeshivish grandparents.

"You want my wonderful daughter for your wonderful son..give me your other son for my not-so-wonderful older daugher."

I personally know of only one case like this..and both couples are divorced.

Actually, you did.

wow! I have never heard of this.

Wow! I have never heard of this.


Neither have I.

So, I'm automatically wrong b/c I'm not an unmarried girl with a married younger sister? That makes a lot of sense. From a male perspective, I would avoid a girl like this. I think it portrays very poor middos. It's one thing to admit to being upset, disappointed, or even secretly jealous. Those are all fair human emotions. However, lowering oneself to the point of preventing another's happiness for the purpose of self-satisfaction is the very definition of pettiness.

This is what I love about women - they don't argue with reason or logic.

And then there are those select few, who feel that their son/daughter is better than the prospective shidduch and ask for a sum of money as compensation.
And then there are those select few idiots who are so desparate to marry off their child at any cost..that they agree to this.

What if it's not the girl's decision? What if she was told to do that by daas Torah? Why would you avoid such a girl? Or maybe you'd avoid her because she listens to daas Torah?

Correct. I think advice such as this has nothing to do with Torah. Sad that people perpetuate silly social constructs under the guise of Torah.

Oh, so you know what Torah's about better than the gedolim who advise on these situations, right?

QFT.



I'm going to assume that eye-rolling made the comment sarcastic.



I guess so. Same as all those girls who don't dress to Rabbi Falk's standards. Where, oh where, have all the doormats gone?

One of my sons in law is the youngest of four brothers. They were all unmarried when he got engaged to my daughter. It took a far-seeing father in law (who actually really wanted my daughter in his family!) to allow him to go first. And it worked to clear the "log jam" because soon after, the other three brothers quickly got married.

My middle son was considerably older than his younger married sisters when he got married. In fact he got married second last of my kids even though he is number 5 out of 8. However my girls all went in order but they had an agreement between them that they would "skip" if the older one took too long! Luckily none of them did.

There's a family of 7 girls in our shul, some of whom are still not married well in their late thirties. They are getting married as and when, no one is waiting for anyone.

I'm not so sure it's the middos the goyim are displaying that are so superior. More like that marriage doesn't feature very large in goyishe culture. So why would they feel sorry for anyone who didn't have that "piece of paper"? They drift in and out of relationships, put down roots temporarily, have children with live in partners, and split up from them.

Judaism does put a much higher value on marriage and that's not to be sneered at even though it affects a lot of people who haven't yet found their bashert.

So basically, you think an unhealthy and emotionally damaging attitude towards marriage is okay - so long as it's "putting a higher value" on marriage than goyim who may have multiple partners or choose long-term cohabitation over traditional marriage? Am I so unique in my feeling that perhaps one should strive for a healthy medium between "I'm so miserable because I'm not married" and the everything-goes attitude of today's society? The frum oilam is so worried that unless a girl is sick at the prospect of singlehood, she'll go straight off the derech and into society's waiting arms? Why can't we hold marriage and family as an ideal without making unmarried women feel horrible?

I agree with you. May we both merit to see the fulfillment of the bolded line speedily in our days.

I also think it's unfair to attack the middos of the people involved...in fact, when gedolim and rabbanim tell a girl to wait for her older sister, it's generally to protect the good will and the feelings of the older sister. It's a display of consideration and respect and sensitivity...good middos in my book.

Of course we can. But that wasn't what you were saying. You were saying the goyim have a much better attitude than we do. Now you are saying (and I agree with this) that something in the middle is ideal.

It's bad middos in the older sister to prevent another's (her own sibling!) happiness to protect her own self-interests/feelings.

Serious contempt can breed the other way as well.


by chassidim they wait for each other but by yeshivish boys and girls are a seperate cheshbon.


I don't think it's the same with other things. Someone asked me if my sister was very hurt when my brother (younger than her) bought a house when she was still renting. It never occured to me (and I hope not her-I certainly doubt it!) that house buying should go in order of age.


I think that you can't have an opinion because you seem like the type (though I can be wrong) who wasn't particularly interested in getting married (though I'm sure you were happy when you were ready to marry your wife) and you are from a world where people get married a bit older.

I repeat: It's not always the older sister. Sometimes the decision has been made by others, and there is an inyan not to skip, so don't pin it all on the older sister. The yeshivish shidduch system is a system; you obviously don't understand it and you may not like it, but there is a rhyme and reason to it all and it's not based on nothing.


You have no idea.

[agenda]
*cough* * sputter*

Of course there's usually a reason, the question all aspects are legitimate and go beyond perpetuating the OPS.
[/agenda]

I was wondering the same thing myself

You know, some of us don't think the OPS is all bad. Some of us actually trust the OPS a little and don't think we are the final arbiters of what's legitimate and what's not.

What you say is generally true. However, I don't think it's fair to say I can't have an opinion. I would argue that my observations from the outside allow me to have a more objective opinion than someone caught up in the emotions of the situation.



Thank you. I was wondering when you would jump in.

So now they are not only petty but a jerk as well? nice.
You know I thought like you too. I would see younger sisters who were 23 and not married cuz of their older sisters and I would say, Why can't she just let her younger sister go ahead of her. i truly did not understand how someone could be so "petty" as you say.
Then I became an older sister. And the rules changed. Its not petty. Its not anything you can understand until you've been there.
For the record i am not planning on making her wait forever. She isn't even 20.

As one coming from the outside you can't understand the pain and despare of an older single who is having no luck finding their own bashert. I'm not saying I would make my younger siblings wait, but I can see where they are coming from. I actually agree that a younger sibling should wait a bit. There is no need to start dating on their 18th birthday when their older sibling is still single. Yes, some people do it and yes, I think the older sibling should take the younger sibling into consideration, but when there is an older sibling who can be hurt in the picture, the younger sibling doesn't have to start the first possible second. I think waiting a year or two for an 18 year old is fair for both parties involved.