i am sending my daughter to an overnight camp and one of the dress requirements is jean skirts can't have a front button or a fly. and the back can't have pockets on the tush. Why? It's an all girls camp, what is wrong with a fron fly?

You've never read R. Falk's book?

Assuming there's something wrong with a front fly, why should it be any different than restrictions on sock, skirt, or sleeve length?

what is wrong with a front fly?Is it a tznius issue? skirts have to be acertain length as do sleeves for tznius reasons. I was shocked because I think I dress "properly" and my jean skirt has a front fly and back pockets!!



obviously not. I guess I will have to borrow it from someone.

Somebody needs to do some introspecting and a major wardrobe overhaul.



You're kidding me. I'm genuinely shocked.

How does one get into a jean skirt that is devoid of fly? Does it have a zip but no button (like non-denim skirts)? A stretch band? I can honestly say that I'm always window shopping denim skirts (and noticing others') and I've never seen a fly-less jean skirt...

If you are so surprised and befuddled by the requirement, might this not be an indication that the camp's hashkafah and your own differ significantly enough for you to look at other options?

My denim skirts are currently in three different countries, so I don't remember exactly how many I have, but I have at least two that zip in the back. One is ankle length and pretty boring, and the other is knee length with a cute belt.

I have two jean skirts that button at the side and one that is a wrap-around.

I've seen it. Will dig up link in a moment. But FYI, it look FRUMPY!!!!!!!

But we're talking about summer camp here. Girls are wearing these skirts to do active things, just like boys would wear them to play soccer. I don't see what's wrong with a tznius length denim skirt that looks like jeans and performs like jeans. The ones with cute belts and zippers in the back are for nicer wear, the kind one might wear for the movies with a cute top, not with a t-shirt to go canoeing.

well, jean skirts without a fly in teh front certainly exist, but i think the majority have them. so, now not only we have to look for the right length, style, but also for the no-front-fly...

my only jean skirt has it

i think i did ask this question before and i even think someone (melech?) answered, but i don't remember it. what's the reason?

Too casual of clothes are also deemed to be not Jewish.

I'm not in any way defending or against jean skirts in any shape or form, but I've never found a jean skirt to be the most comfortable skirt. They're heavy, take forever to dry, and turn your legs blue until they've been washed many times. When I wear a jean skirt, it's to dress down and feel sporty. When I want to bum around and chill out, still in a skirt, I wear a long black stretch skirt.

Penina, in most of these girls' camps, the girls go canoeing in their bathing suits and a life jacket.

That's denim in general

I think it's the fact that it draws attention to a certain area, just like back pockets...L'maisa, I personally hold (with no rabbinic approval or backing) that a fly on a skirt that is covered up by an untucked shirt (gasp) like a sweatshirt is of no consequence.

which one does? http://www.stylishjeans.com/trdesk.html

Not Jewish is pushing it, maam. All you need to be Jewish is a Jewish mother (or be megayer), not a closet with no jean skirts in it.


But those long black skirts are a fairly new invention. Back in the day, your only choice was a denim skirt...more comfortable than a jean skirt.

htye are very comfortable, if they are not too heavy and flary.



thanks, agent, now i think that was the argument, but aren't all (most?) zippers covered with a piece of fabric?



i knew, there was a difference between denim and jean!

The only denim skirt that comes to mind that was around in the olden days before black stretchy skirts came out, and isn't too heavy, is the biz skirt.

That's it! I grew up in the biz skirt generation.

I wonder if my khaki skirts with a front fly would be considered acceptable or if the rule only applies to denim skirts.

Front fly rule is for all skirts I believe.
Not sure if khaki is allowed Although I would wear one myself if I could find one that fit!

No. Of course, now I can't find precisely what I was thinking of, but it's something like this:
http://www.roamans.com/clothing/Cargo-skir...;PurchaseType=0

not sure baout the olden-olden days, but my present skirt is very comfortable (maybe i'll dig up the picture), and i remember having another denim skirt some time ago - also comfortable, but both fo them are flary types

wow, you guys answer fast. sorry, i had to take my son skating.
the camp is an agudah type camp and i have no problem with their hashkafa, i just didn't understand the jean skirt issue. still don't.

Wait, so they're allowed to go canoeing in just a bathing suit and a life jacket but they have to make sure their denim skirt doesn't have a front fly?! Are you kidding me?!

If it actually fit you, instead of stuffing yourself in like a sausage, you wouldn't have this problem...

Women's hips are bigger than their waists. If something fit my hips, it would not appropriately fit my waist, it would be too big around. If something was fit for my waist, I couldn't get it up around my hips. Thus, a fly is necessary to allow the item to expand when pulling it up but fitting properly when buttoned.

A button wouldn't suffice???

Get a zipper on back or if you want to be from the 90s, get a biz skirt.


aren't they th same thing.


yup


It's usually on a private lake/area with no men around

no, it wouldn't help with hips. a button is on the belt part of the skirt = waist part.

so they can wear only a bathing suit on the private lake, but they can't wear a jean skirt with a fly on the private camp grounds?

Nice to know you were checking out my ######...



A what?

on a related topic,
what about snowpants if they are going toboganning? is that taboo? because my daughter's class went toboganning and were not allowed to wear snow pants,even under their skirts.

That's how I believe it works. But, I know nothing about this camp.


which part of post are you asking about?


The school that allows them to watch movies?
Personally, I have been told that often it's more tznius to wear pants under skirt during certain sports so that in case skirt flies a bit, there won't be nothing left.
Didn't her legs freeze?

The school that allows them to watch movies?
Personally, I have been told that often it's more tznius to wear pants under skirt during certain sports so that in case skirt flies a bit, there won't be nothing left.
Didn't her legs freeze?
[/quote]

yes the very same school, they are a bit mixed up in their hashkafa.
and yes she froze especially since she won't wear tights.

I'm torn between:
1. It was kind of difficult to miss...
and
2. I was taught that it is polite to make eye contact when speaking to someone...

What is a biz skirt?

then:

1. You probably say the same of both sides of a doorframe.

and

2. Those weren't my eyes.


Now stop flirting with me and get back on topic.

I am not sure how to describe it, but it's basically a waisted skirt with a 'tall waistband' and just flairy.

It has an elastic waistband, then a yoke, and then it flairs out.

yoke?

yoke: a fitted or shaped piece at the top of a skirt or at the shoulder of various garments

I think you need a picture.

Yeah, I'm having trouble visualizing.

But I don't have a picture handy. Sorry!

Well that was a bit of a let-down.

I'm sorry. The problem is that the biz era was before the digital camera era, so I would have to dig up pictures from about 15 years ago and then scan them in to get you a picture. I'm not that dedicated.

Kind of like how the tiered skirts are now: with a flat large waist before the next panel? Well, underneath that part was a flairy, pleated denim skirt...

Biz skirt:

http://www.tznius.com/cgi-bin/product.pl?p...&groupid=26

Yikes. Thanks GF.

wow! didn't know they still made biz skirts, haven't seen one since i was a teenager.