Remind me if I'm forgetting some crucial aspects of Judaism or marriage or if I'm imagining this.

Why is there such a drive to hide all affection of one's spouse from others? When a man and woman are married, they are supposed to love each other and care for each other. Why do some pretend that they're just two people who happen to be sharing the same house and the same kids?

Well, PDA of any sort, even if it's simply holding hands, will advertise whether or not an observant woman is niddah. I can understand why some people may not want such a thing to be public knowledge.

When the couple passes items to each other, it advertises that she's not a niddah.

"Machshavos Ra'os"


Personally, I don't like PDA because I think it cheapens the relationship if everyone can have a peek into what is going on in one's personal life; if the couple is on good terms or not...Brocha rests on that that is hidden from public view. Something special stays more special when less people have a part in it. This is my personal belief; I can't speak for someone else.

Shemmy, I don't think that's necessarily the case. What if someone is 7 months pregnant? She most likely is not a nidda. Still, couples refrain from PDA at those times.
To me, PDA includes those mushy gazes prevalent in wedding photos -- no touching required. So I don't buy the nidda argument.

why are you assuming that just because there is no public show of affection that the couple don't love and care for each other. Some people, through their understanding of modesty, feel more comfortable acting a certain way in public but in the privacy of their own home and in front of their children, they hug each other and show their kids that they love each other. I've seen people, in public, all over each other that it was very uncomfortable to witness to a point where I wanted to suggest a room for them. What does halacha say?

The OP is talking about PDA and not passing things to a spouse.
In my opinion, when people exhibit too much PDA to the point where it makes others around them uncomfortable, it's a sign of insecurity.

I believe that people should show affection towards each other whenever they feel like it. People should not withold compliments or smiles or gazes or touches out of fear of some ridiculous social convention, or out of worry of what people "might think". People should be genuine and authentic and spontaneous when it comes to expressions of love. That's my feeling about that.

I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to break out this tired line.

I generally agree. Everyone needs to relax.

I'm not talking about major displays of affection, but just acting in a way that you would act with a good friend. What about in front of the kids? What if kids don't realize their parents love each other because they never see any affection between them?


I'm not assuming that at all. I'm assuming that a couple love and care for each other, so why does it have to be so hidden?


No, the OP wasn't talking about passing things to a spouse. I don't consider that a display of affection, that's just normal interaction.

Yes, I agree with that. But what about holding hands? Why is that so bad? [I know it's not done in my circles, and I'm starting to think that maybe that's not such a good thing.]

Off topic:
Is there a difference between machashavot ra'ot and hirhurei aveirah?

Thinking about finding a suitcase with cash or winning a lottery is a tolda of hirhurei aveira.

Some people interact differently in public but it has nothing to do with trying to hide that they care for each other. It's just that even the simplest of interactions can be private. It's hard to explain.

Like a pat on the shoulder?
I don't know yet about in front of the kids. At this point my kids are still young, so I'm a bit more lax than I am in public as far as casual touch. I do not think kids think their parents don't love each other because they don't see physical affection. There is a whole emotional relationship kids are very attune to; how the spouses address each other, if they are happy and laughing, helpful to one another, show respect....that means more than seeing the parents hugging in my opinion.


Hmmm...my husband and I were actually discussing this at the dinner table a couple nights ago
According to him, there is nothing halachically wrong (assuming of course the woman is tehora); it's more of a hashkafic inyan that couples should keep their relationship under wraps to "preserve" it so to speak...then there is the issue of machshavos raos others might have, so some people don't touch b'derech chiba (I do think holding hands applies, BTW) because of that.

I do know of a choshuv talmid chochom who would hold hands with his wife outside when no one else is around because it makes her happy. In a community where people of his nature absolutely do not. So there is compromise. But I don't see what is "not good" about not holding hands in public....is it that you feel others don't know that husbands and wives care for each other? That the couple is losing out on bonding? What bothers you exactly about it?

There is an absolute minhag Yisroel to hold hands at the Chuppa. And there is a million stories about old people from the old country of all backgrounds including the chassidishestest and the litveshestest holding hands while walking on Shabbos. People should mind their business, simple as that.

Interesting...I don't really know what you mean.


It's not only about physical contact. It's also about a way of acting towards each other that I don't see that much.


See, I don't get this "preservation" thing. It's not like you're going to display your deepest love for each other in public. I'm talking about small things. It doesn't get used up! I could be wrong, but it seems to me that if the switch is turned off most of the time, it can either come out in full force in private, or it can be so repressed that it doesn't know how to come out even in private.

I don't think a couple should davka hold hands or should davka not. I just don't think it should necessarily be taboo. It doesn't really matter what "others" think...but I think it does matter what one's children think because it'll affect their perspective on marriage and what they think is normal behavior in a marriage.


Litvishe don't do that.


But they don't.

Too late, a generation already grew up thinking that showing love towards your spouse is taboo.

I figured someone would say that. Read what I bolded above.

Refraining from PDA can often be a sensitivity issue. It can appear as if a couple who is all over each other while in front of a single guy or girl, is flaunting how wonderful their relationship is to this person who is having a difficult time finding a partner. This is likely not the intention of the couple but it still may appear this way to the person observing.

This can even be the case when in front of another couple. The non-touching couple may very well think, 'Oh..they think their relationship is so much better than ours." Basically, PDA often leaves those who observe it feeling uncomfortable.

Right. I'm that generation. I'm reevaluating some of my generation's values.

As VLG said, people should relax.

What if a gadol said displays of affection in public toward your spouse is taboo?

Or... you can be more sensitive to people who don't have as wonderful a relationship as you and your spouse have and refrain from hugging/kissing/etc. your spouse until you are in a more private location.

i don't know if this should be the reason. should i not hug or kiss my child in the park, where there could be people going through infertility problems?

*shrug*

I enjoy seeing people in love. It brightens up the day.

Why should seeing someone else happy make you jealous? I think that's really messed up.

Litvishe also have a cross in their heart, so what ?

For somebody who is not in a relationship or is in a 'bad' relationship, it's basically an 'In Your Face' reminder of your difficult situation.

It's one thing to walk past two complete strangers who are kissing in a mall. It's another thing to get together with friends of yours who can't keep their hands off one another. For someone in a 'not as wonderful relationship as your's', he/she may wish their friends were a bit more sensitive.

Taboo is a minhag emori and thus taboo.

I do see small displays of affection like husbands holding doors for wives, quick smiles, even a pretty yeshivish guy helping his pregnant wife with her coat...It's done, but as subtly as possible.
Or am I still not talking about the right things?


There is balance. A couple doesn't have to pretend to not know each other in public. Or to act cold. As you said, acting friendly -- but I see that happening. I think that's enough not to repress anything, yet keeps private life private.


Again, I know many children who saw very little (if any) physical contact between their parents and grew up just fine. The ahava was apparent in other ways and the kids felt secure and happy without having to actually see their parents holding hands.
As far as it being taboo to hold hands in public, I don't think those who don't are doing it because it's not accepted; I think it's because they themselves have decided it's not for them...there are very frum couples who I have seen holding hands. I don't know if they asked, decided to on their own, or what, but it's not against halacha.


Correct.

What?
You said it's an absolute minhag yisroel. It obviously isn't, if a large group of Klal Yisroel aren't doing it.

It's not always about religion.

No, that's the type of things I'm talking about. I don't really see it.


I know it's not against halacha, but I disagree that they don't do it because it's not accepted. But we live in different communities so we're not going to see the same thing.

It's a mesorah. Those who know, know.


Modern "Litvishe" have nothing to do with "Litvishe"; they're "Yeshivishe", people who invented a new lifestyle and a new set of behaviours that hardly qualify as "minhag"; what they do or not do is fine for them but not a custom any more then the fact that most jews eat bread on pesach make that a custom. They couldn't locate Lithuania on the map if their life depended on it.

Those are displays of affection ? In the old country, it was a social norm to give a hand to any random woman getting off the bus immediately after you. Not holding a door for someone is a sign of boorishness. Not smiling is a sign of depression. And why shouldn't a guy help his pregnant wife just because he's pretty ?


Frankly, if these children never saw parents hold hands in private, I doubt they can grow up wholesome humans, even if they can emulate the appearance.

I don't see it as a drive to hide it, I see it as a drive to not make my spousal relationship on display.
I don't know anyone who pretends that way. Just because 2 people don't hold hands, doesn't mean they aren't showing that they care for one another and respect one another while in public.


To VLG and Moshi (And perhaps melech, but it's not clear where he's standing) - do you feel that it's appropriate for a husband and wife to argue in public?



*Personally, I enjoy waiting in line together as we get some extra shmooz time in there, aside from the ride there/back.


I have never seen my parents hold hands in private and/or public and it has NOTHING to do with being yeshivish!!!! I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

I actually conglomerated (that's a real word?!) different snippets from memory that took place in a few different countries, in a few different communities.
I saw one couple in Har Nof that looked like they were part of the yeshiva world, holding hands on a Friday night walk (woman was pregnant IIRC). That sticks out in my mind because I was taken aback; I don't see couples walking enough to know if this happens more often than that one time. For the most part, in my circles, no, no one would walk holding hands with their husbands. Perhaps it's a sensitivity for tznius but I think it coincides with my opinion that it just is an intimate part of one's relationship with a spouse that one wants to keep private. Doing something all the time I would think lessens the power of it, and doing so when others are around does, in my opinion, make it less of a private thing that only the couple shares.

I caught that later

notreallyhere said she wasn't only talking about physical displays of affection....I was giving examples of other ways a spouse can show (s)he cares for the other....


Ok. I'll let my husband know that we should hold hands to say grace before eating.

True. You shouldn't french kiss in the middle of talking to a friend who's going through a divorce. There should be some common sense used.

But in some circles holding hands or a rub of the back or similar simple gestures have become defined as "PDA" and I think that's too much. Obviously with all this it's all about how you grew up, and what you are used to culturally. But something is missing from the world where all warm feelings are concealed and suppressed and regarded as shameful.

I don't -- it's part of keeping one's relationship private.

No need for that, just tell him not to treat you like you have have black smallpox all the time.

No.

You're too kind. That's actually one of the nicest things anyone can say about me on h.com - that I have successfully obscured my personal position.

Don't you think that's hypocritical?

I didn't say we don't touch at home, did I?
And perhaps I'm the one treating him like he has an infectious disease?

Why is it putting your "spousal relationship" on display? Why is it such a big deal? Why does it have to be that it stands out and everyone will notice? Why can't it just be normal?


Maybe it lessens the power of it, but I think it's important that the concept of love and affection in a marriage is known and understood, instead of being squelched, like it is.

Just by the way, y'all are aware of the Rama to EH 21:5, based on a Nimukei Yoseph, which in turn is sourced in a gemara, that public displays of chibbah are not permitted?

Erm no, wth.

It's a shame you dropped out of law school.

So couples need to b'davka have PDA in order that OTHERS who otherwise would not know that love and affection is a normal part of marriage? Why does a couple need to be put on a pedestal for others to learn from? How far does this go? Somehow children do not get educated in most families of what happens behind a closed bedroom door and manage fine.
I think smiling is showing care and affection and it is done; I'm not sure why that's not enough.

I couldn't reconcile it with a halachically observant life.