Have you ever heard of a woman who has a boy and girl who wants a heter for birth control for whatever reason [be it health, financial, shalom bayit, stress...for whatever reason, she feels she cannot handle another pregnancy/delivery/child at this time and she wants a heter], and her rabbi denies her a heter and she accepts the psak and goes ahead and gets pregnant, against her wishes but she is listening to the psak?
Would a rabbi really take on that responsibility to insist that a woman who feels she needs a heter for birth control is mistaken? Would a rabbi insist that such a woman get pregnant in spite of her feeling she needs a heter?

Do people normally publicize this information?

she need to see a doctor not a rabbi

I have no idea. But people talk. And share information. I could imagine Sarah Draizel saying to Nechama Dina, "I felt I couldn't handle another pregnancy and I asked the rav for a heter for...you know...but he said no, have faith in the Aibishter that He will provide and make everything turn out well, and I listened to the rav, and B"H now Chaya Mushka is the light of my eyes".
Or maybe h.com member X heard from a rav or a rebbetzin something. Who knows. I'm asking the question.

that's why a lot of people won't ask shailos about birth control, they don't think it should be up to their rav.

Who then?

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themselves

Why is birth control a matter that no longer requires a rabbi?

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Because Western values have replaced Torah values. A person's body is his own personal reshus and domain and what right does any Rabbi have to tell someone what they should do with their own body...

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i didn't say it was right or wrong it's just the way some people legitimize it.

What would you consider a matter that does require a rabbi?

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I didn't say me. I ask a rav my shailos. I'm just saying that a lot of people won't ask a shailoh on this subject because they don't think a rav has the right to tell them they need to keep having kids if they don't want to.

Because many rabbi's expect women to be baby making machines. Many rabbi's simply do not get what goes on in a womens body when she is pregnant. As most rabbi's are also husbands, they do not know what it feels like to go without sleep for literally years at a time. Many rabbi's do not understand that some women get so physically sick from pregnancies, that it takes months, to return to their normal level of health.

Then there are rabbi's who give only a 6 month heter, when its obvious to most that the women needs more then that. Women are told to use methods that have a high failure rate, because it is more preferable then pills, IUD's, and diaphragms. Women are scared to ask a rabbi for fear that in the time of their greatest need he will say "no".

IMVHO, I think any women who asks for a heter should get one. You do not lower yourself and embarrass yourself unless you really feel you need it, and if you really feel you need it a rabbi, should not say no and ignore your concerns.

I rest my case....

Exactly what halachos are involved in BC?

I think that view is shared by a not insignificant number of women. Given that assumption, at least for the women who believe that any woman who asks for a heter should get one, then why bother asking? What's the point in the pro forma exercise?

Could you please clarify that? What kinds of methods are recommended as preferable to oral contraceptives?

melech - One of my husbands best friends has 5 children. After his second, he begged his rabbi for a heter. No. He had a child a year later. This happened twice more. Now they have five kids, in about 8-9 years. So far I don't think she is expecting, but what do I know?

I think it's an outrage. I'd love to know who he asked.

Many women are told to use foam and jelly contraceptives, which have a very high failure rate.

Those who feel they need to ask will ask when they think they need one. Most of the time when one asks, they are pretty desperate and at the end of their ropes. I think for many families who do ask for a heter, it's because they are looking for someone else to validate their feelings and put thier minds at ease.

The ones who feel a rabbi is not a necessary part of the BC issue, will not ask in the first place.

A women does not actually have the mitzvah of procreation, many women will take contraception without telling their husbands, since there is no reason for her to procreate unless she wants to (based on a womens natural desire to have children). Personally I am of the opinion that this is a very dishonest method,but, I am aquainted with women who have done this.

So what's the point? What a pathetic p'sak.

I think women are also given this psak because they themselves are afraid to take birth control pills. The side effects such as weight gain or moodiness are often overdramatized and women don't want to commit to taking a pill every day. Also, they don't want to mess with their cycle and are afraid of spotting. Or they're nursing and can't take the pill. I'm not saying thats any excuse for using contraceptive film, but I'm just not convinced that women are using it because cruel rabbis are tricking them into having babies against their will.

ot: After reading the skipping single siblings crisis thread, I'm starting to think these rabbis should encourage a multi year spacing span between siblings, so no two are dating at the same time......

Happens to be, I had a really odd thought awhile back. I decided that just like siblings often wait at least a bit before dating if there's an older single, then a younger married sibling who has an older sibling without children, should go on BCP for an amount of time to give the older sibling a bit of time; maybe they'll conceive.

I know, I know, it's odd.

Yeah, I'm surprised no one offered that idea as counter-argument on the thread too, because it occurred to me. We must think alike.

but wouldn't they talk to the Dr after the rav, and wouldn't the Dr tell them about high failure rate?

when a woman asks for a heter, the rav tells her which contraceptive to use? why?

An apostrophe is a terrible thing to waste.

Every time you waste an apostrophe, someone else will have to do without one:

This question has come up before, and it basically boils down to why a rav needs to be asked. Is he making an actual halachic determination about whether her circumstances warrant b.c.? Is the rav's heter just a necessary declaration in order to make b.c. permissible? Is he giving advice? guidance? Does his answer reflect his interpretation of halacha or his hashkafos on the importance of reproduction? Is getting a heter just a matter of presenting your case in a way that will make you seem desperate enough?

Really? I didn't know that. I assumed that the pill is higher in the hierarchy of acceptability. Foam and jelly aren't considered barrier techniques at all that also destroy spermies?

Wow. That must do wonders for their shalom bayit when every time they have sex they are dreading another pregnancy.

I'm going to suggest that there's an alternative explanation: Not that a rav/shailah isn't needed because they spit of the concept of asking shaylas, but because the answer is known - since it's reasonable to assume, as has been suggested in this thread, that a woman at her wit's end who feels she needs a heter will get one [barring an "unreasonable" rabbi like Belle's friend's husband's rabbi], it's just pro forma to ask so why bother. Just like we don't ask a shaylah about each and every bedikah - we don't bother when we can reasonably anticipate the answer, be it good or not good.

As for women not telling their husband, yes, I've heard of that as well. That deserves a thread of its own. But I suspect that a certain percentage of the husbands know - they're not total idiots, and the wives aren't actually lying, it's just that it's comfortable for the husband to be in plausible deniability.

Maybe, but I can imagine women using the most halachically acceptable [ie what their rabbi said] in spite of the risks and taking their chances. After all, at least for some of them, unless they really, really can't handle another kid, it wouldn't be devastating to have another kid, they just aren't ready for it. So they weigh the pros and cons - they don't want a kid, but want to do what's "right", so they listen to the rabbi, and hope for the best. Whatever happens, happens.


Some are more acceptable than others. For example, a rabbi gives a heter. He has to follow through and say this and this are not acceptable, that and that are more so. He can't say, use bc, and then the couple uses condoms, for instance.
At what point it becomes that the rabbi is dispensing medical advice, that's another, and valid, question. Does the rabbi take a complete medical history to know if an oral contraceptive is contraindicated? No. But the rabbi would probably say, these and these are better, check with your physician.

My assumption is that for many women, once they ask for a heter, consider themselves worthy of a heter so yes, it's a matter of how you ask it. How you ask a question makes a world of difference in many areas.
But you're right, if the woman is asking advice and guidance, like whether the idea is acceptable or appropriate in her circumstances, that's totally different. Then a rabbi can say that stuff about replacing the holocaust victims or whatever else it is rabbis say, maybe something about the neshamos floating around waiting for a body. But if she says, "I can't handle another kid", the rabbi is going to say, "Tough luck"?

At a certain point, I assume many women assume something of a game is being played here, which could help explain why some women don't bother with the official heter, or they know whom to ask and how. I don't think it's necessarily a case of sinners who don't ask shaylos because they spit on all that is holy.

While spermicide is extremely effective when combined with condoms, it has a high failure rate on its own. Why? Simply because there are millions of the little guys and it's tough to get them all.


Yeah.

I understand that. But that makes it a less than perfect barrier and destroyer of sperm, rather than not being a barrier at all.

Your chance of getting pregnant in any given month without any form of b.c. is not 100%. Let's say a woman's odds are 50-50. Maybe an imperfect method that will bring the odds down to 1:4 or 1:10 is sufficient for this woman and will give her some breathing room.

Right - that was my point in the top half of post #32.


My question here is why foam and jelly are considered more halachically acceptable in the hierarchy than an oral contraceptive. Are you saying it's more acceptable halachically specifically because it's not so effective (relatively speaking) regardless of its mechanism of action?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I don't know how rabbonim weigh b.c. issues and come to the conclusions they do.

ok

What difference does it make how many or what kind of kids they have? If the rabbi says no then he is still taking "on that responsibility to insist that a woman who feels she needs a heter for birth control is mistaken." Or, do you think a rabbi will feel better about doing that to someone if he has "more" halachic backing for his decision.


I think this might be true for some comunities, but in more modern communities people don't want to have kids for a lot of reasons. Just because they are asking does not mean they will go insane (literally) if they have a kid. They just don't want one.

I agree completely about the bolded part. I think that is why most people ask any kind of question.

I'm not sure. But I was trying to exclude from the discussion the example of kids who get married and want to use bc so they have some time to themselves before starting a family.

Is there something inherently wrong with taking a year or two to get comfortable with your spouse before going through the ordeals of pregnancy, birth and parenthood?

I'm not sure how to answer that if you are asking me, specifically. There are obviously different schools of thought on that.

I mean I could understand that the torah would have an issue with someone not wanting to ever fulfill the mitzvah of pru urvu but why does it need to be fulfilled immediately?

Well, that's another question altogether. The poskim discuss that, if one is permitted to delay a mitvah fulfillment or not and if that's considered not fulfilling the mitzvah if you put it off. There are permissive and restrictive opinions, and even then, there are other considerations that can trump the general rule.
There's a teshuvah in Bnei Banim. b'n I'll scan it next week. But he talks about that, giving a heter for bc when you're first married. If I recall correctly, he says 6 months maximum. That's because of the halachah of camel people or whatever it was - those people in shulchan aruch who are obligated to be intimate only every 6 months, so that's the outside limit for bc.

Ok, this thread spiraled out of control while I was away last night, but at first I was going to say that I don't know anyone, but then I realized it's not true.

The one person I know was engaged and in school and had a bit more than 1 year left. She asked as she was worried she wouldn't finish school if she had a child. I don't think rav outright said no, but the ensuing discussion had her avoid it.

Now, the part that bothers me.

A few years later she b"h had 2 kids, finished school, was working, etc. and was feeling overwhelmed. She now took that previous no and made it a current no - which made no sense to me. Her whole life's situation had changed. She had 2 small children, working full time (including Sundays) and a few other such items. She never bothered to ask and just assumed it was a no....

They are not halachically more accepted. My Rav highly encourages these forms over BC pills, primarily because he is very much against the adverse effects BC pills have on a woman's system and hormones.

That's very interesting, thanks.
But still: 1. Would he then encourage barrier contraceptives in general over hormonal? Why not a Today Sponge, for instance, instead of foam?
2. That's still the issue raised above of a rabbi pretending to be a physician and making health care decisions. Wouldn't that require a thorough medical history of the woman to know what's best for her and her particular situation, and the training to interpret that medical history? Or is what a rabbi can get off the Internet and medical hearsay and anecdotal stories enough?

1) What's the difference between the today sponge and the foam? Aren't they the same thing?
2) He mentioned specifically that physicians love the pill, where as he sees the adverse effects of them all to often, and how much they mess up a woman's cycle and nidda situation. He related to me some stores of the very bad effects he personally dealt with, with women who took them.

Well, again, is the rabbi suggesting his preferred method considered a psak, or friendly advice? By recommending a cervical cap, is he saying that it's the only halachically acceptable form of b.c that this woman can use? Or does he give her a range of options and tell her to consult her doctor to find out which one is best for her in her circumstances? Is there any basis for a rabbi asser going on the pill on halachic grounds, if b.c. is otherwise appropriate in her case?