This is sort of a tangential spinoff to the heter for bc thread, where a wife uses bc without explicitely telling her husband, and it's a don't ask don't tell sort of thing.

Let's say Chaim Yaakov is sick on shabbos. Nechama Dina really thinks they need to buy medicine or take him to the hospital. Sender doesn't think so - either he's not sick enough, or he thinks they can wait till after shabbos, or this sickness isn't the type to warrant chillul shabbos, or whatever. However it happens, there's a disagreement and Sender thinks they should wait till after shabbos and Nechama Dina insists they must do something now, and she is prepared to drive Chaim Yaakov to the hospital.

Would you, as Sender, take the "sin" upon yourself to spare your spouse from getting what you believe to be a sin? Would you say, "Fine, then I'll drive Chaim Yaakov to the hospital or go to the pharmacy to buy the antibiotics"?

Would you sin in order to spare your spouse a sin?

I'm going to assume from this scenario that neither person is a medical doctor who can properly diagnose this problem. With this assumption, whenever there is doubt regarding health and shabbos, you act first and then ask questions later-simple as that! Would I sin for my spouse? I would feel obligated to educate myself and therefore be able to educate her-if she then decides to still "sin", she's taking the fall for it.

Are you claiming that when either spouse thinks they should be mechalel shabbos, whether they are right or wrong in this case and regardless of the opinion of the other spouse, the spouse that says mechalel shabbos always trumps?

Probably not. My husband for sure would. He has, except he doesn't consider it a sin as it is what he is supposed to do. (except I once carried a pen and some tissues in my pocket outside an eruv while taking daughter to doctor. I can think of one instance where he definitely did this and a second where he was about to, but then we came up with an alternative which required neither of us to.

I don't see when this would come into play, except for the BC issue and then it's not just sinning it's also lying to your spouse.

The air conditioner is blasting away on shabbos or the light is on in the kid's room. Your spouse says he or she is going to turn it off with his or her elbow, backing into it. So you do it instead.
In other words, you believe something to be sinful, your spouse does not, in all sincerity. But you do. So you do it instead to spare the spouse who will do it regardless since the spouse thinks it's ok.


Edited to add:
I still really love this classic post:
http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?s=&...st&p=351946

Wait- you suggesting the spouse sin bemayzid, rather than let the other spouse sin beshogaig (since he/she doesnt think its a sin)?

I'm not suggesting anyone do or don't do anything. I'm asking if you would do it.

Not to get too Shalom Auslander here, but you'd think that Hashem would be more likely to let the beshogaig spouse get off the hook easier... so sinning for them seems like a bad idea.

is this the spiritual equivalent of asking "would you take a bullet for your family members"?

Yes.

Well I think the spouse who doesn't think it's assur should do it, because they at worst will be considered a shogeg while you'll be a meizid. What's the question?

Once I was staying someplace and the fridge light was left on over shabbos. I let my son do the opening and closing of the fridge figuring he wouldn't know the difference, and he's a katan. Smart little boy that he is, after a few times he figured out that a light goes on and wouldn't open it for the rest of shabbos. Fortunately it was cool enough outside that I could leave the food there without it spoiling.

Unless I misunderstood I have found this come into play numerous time. My daughter needed emergency care and I was nervous to call cab/ambulance/dr, etc on Shabbos, but my husband was ready to dial immediately. Then, we came up with a better idea, but he practically had phone in his hand and was dialing.

I'm not sure, but something is telling me that it's not so cut and dried. After all, if the meizid spouse does it on the shogeg spouse's behalf, on a certain level it's probably a shogeg or at least a proto-shogeg for him as well.
Take the light switch example for example. Nechama Dina thinks it's ok with a shinui in extenuating circumstances, Sender thinks it's assur. If Sender takes the bullet, maybe it's really on some level almost like a shogeg for him since on a certain level he is almost relying on Nechama Dina's opinion that it's ok.
Or not. Maybe that's a stretch.
I'm surprised everyone is seeing this as so open and shut.

it is totally assur to have a child do something for you because you can't on shabbos. For example, you live in a city with no eiruv so you get your kid to carry your siddur for you-no way! And consider the message you're sending your child with that request.

except you don't know Jeanette's exact situation. For example, a kid could carry a siddur that he needs for himself in certain situations, and so too could a kid open the fridge, arguably, for himself, it's just that mom then grabs the gefilte fish while it's open...let's not go around telling people what they are doing is totally assur without knowing the exact circumstances

when it comes to health issues, darn straight! And don't refer to it as mechalel shabbos-when a pikuach nefesh issue arises on shabbos, I would say it's for the honour that one shows life

Thanks for the psak! Now I know that soon as anybody ever says to do something on shabbos that is health related to run to do it regardless of any other consideration, such as if it's permitted or not.

<-- That's me, in this topic.

There is a whole sugya about this in Hilchos Shabbos. The case is where someone put bread in the oven and hasn't yet transgressed, but he WILL be oiver an issur D'oarisa if it is left. The question there is can one deliberately transgress a Rabbinic commandment and remove the bread in order to save oneself (or someone else) from transgressing an issur D'oarisa.

I believe there was a nafka mina there whether it was for YOU or someone else, but that was for an issur D'Rabannan. To willfully commit an issur D'Oarisa in order to spare someone else from doing so is completely out of the question IMHO...

Ain omrim laadam chatey bishvil sheyizka chavercha. One may not sin (even a lax sin) to prevent someone else from a more serious sin.

thats not always true, i just dont have source material with me, i think its in the SA 307 or near there.... ill try to look it up
(possibly in the nosei keilim)

If you are nervous about using the telephone on Shabbos in an emergency situation, I strongly urge you to carefully learn the halachos of cholim on shabbos or talk to your rabbi about what is and is not permitted - and sometimes, what is required.

It makes me very nervous to read about people who are nervous to respond in medical situations on Shabbos.

307 has 22 sifim. Too much for me too look through.

Right, that was basically the scenario in this case. I reasoned (rightly or wrongly) that if he didn't realize the light would go on, I wasn't obligated to tell him, since the purpose of his action wasn't to open the light. I did not ask him to open the fridge but took advantage of the times he decided to do so. However, once he figured out on his own that the light would go on that line of reasoning went out the window.

But, here's an idea for a spinoff thread: Are we obligated to inform someone that something they're doing might be assur, if they are getting no hana'ah from it, but preventing them from doing it would present a hardship? As an example, I was once informed that I had something attached to my clothing that might be considered carrying if I went outside with it, but it was also forbidden to remove on shabbos, and since I wasn't at home at the time that would leave me only the option of staying there until shabbos was over. In such a case, would it be better to leave well enough alone and not tell the person until after shabbos?

Or looking at water/vegetables under a microscope to let everyone know exactly how many bugs they're eating with every bite, or whoever sounded the alarm over Indian hair shaitels. etc.

R' David Feinstein is of the opinion that no one should have looked at the water in the first place (regarding bugs).

its at the end of 306, but its refering to being mechalel shabbos (deoraysa) to prevent someone from being forced to not keep shabos ever again..... in terms of the discussion i dont think its relevant....
sorrry