Is going into a public library on Shabbat and browsing and reading there forbidden or permitted, appropriate or inappropriate?

Notice how the question lose its potency if you change the word "public" for "personal private" even if one's private collection rivals the one at the public library...

Depends what you browse or read.
Inappropriate.

In America, inappropriate, because people will be there using computers and stuff (AKA it's a non-Shabbosdik atmosphere). If it were Israel, in a frum neighborhood, where the computers were turned off and it was known that people go there on Shabbos afternoons to read, then I'd say acceptable.

Definitely inappropriate but it would hard to find a specific prohibition that it violates....

But who has time to do all this stuff on Shabbos anyway. I barely manage to squeeze all the required stuff in, during the time alloted....


AFAIK they don't HAVE secular libraries in frum neighborhoods in Israel, and if they DO they most certainly will NOT be open on Shabbos....

That's three "inappropriates" so far.
Supplemental question: Why is it inappropriate?

Supplemental no. 2: What about attending a shul that is physically located in a mall? Let's say the shul is renting space in the professional offices on the second floor of the mall near the physicians, dentists, travel agents, and real estate agents.

Interesting. So what is the difference? That there could be idol worshipers, non-Orthodox Jews, and others of ill repute present? They may draw the erroneous conclusion that it's permitted to read books on shabbat if they see someone with a kippah? I'm assuming the problem is NOT that there are books about dinosaurs and astronomy books that assume a heliocentric model of the solar system and other such heresies, since I'm assuming the Jew would only read those books in the library on Shabbat that are actually permitted.
In other words, what makes the public library inappropriate but not forbidden?
In general, what makes something not forbidden but inappropriate? How do determine for yourself what is inappropriate? What are your criteria? And when you say something is inappropriate, what does that mean? You yourself would opt not to do it? You think others as well should not do it?

Great question, Melech.
Is the problem with the computers that others may think you are using a computer and not just reading in the library?

My concern is not with idol worshipers or a non shomer Shabbos environment, it is an outwardly religious Jew, going in full shabbos regalia to the public library and sitting there reading secular books as if it were any other day.
Reading such material at HOME is potentially problematic, and if someone wants to rely on the opinion that it's OK if someone enjoys it and finds it relaxing, that is one thing. But to go on Shabbos to the library just seems like a bizayon to Shabbos, and a shtickle chillul Hashem to me... Would you go to the movies if it was free? A concert? A Sporting event??? Would you leave a TV on a Shabbos clock to watch your favorite shows (ignoring the potential maras ayin or hashmaas kol issues)?

It's just not a "Shabbosdik" place to be, and a reeks of "Uvdin D'Chol". It is VERY different from reading harry potter or The Jewish Press in your bathroom after the cholent.....



It's a VERY fine line and there is a huge gray area, but this case seems clear to me. Tell me you wouldn't be surprised to see an obviously frum Jew walk out of the public library and make his way to mincha. I certainly wouldn't do it myself, and I don't thinks others should either but again it would be extremely difficult to tell someone it is outright assur....

I don't see a problem with it. Seems actually like a great shabbas activity (assuming the doors aren't automatic and you don't have to go through a scanner)

nothing inapporpriate about it, seems like a nice thing to do. the library near me is not so interesting, but that's beside the point. i also have no problem going to free museums and the like. it's a nice way to spend a long shabbos afternoon, especially if you're travelling.

Well...just yesterday during shabbat I noticed a man in a kippah walking into a kosher bagel shop and to be honest was a bit taken aback, so I can see how people might think that non-Orthodox Jews might reach incorrect conclusions based on what they see. In my particular case I obviously didn't interpret that to mean that it's OK for Orthodox Jews to go into a store and buy kosher bagels for lunch on shabbat, but rather assumed that despite his outward appearance [i.e. wearing a kippah], he might not really be too observant. It did surprise me though since the non-O Jews I know don't wear kippot outside of shuls, funeral homes, shivas, etc... That said, I can imagine how other non-O Jews might have interpreted the situation differently than I did.

I agree

It's also possible that the bagels were ordered and paid for before shabbat. If he's eating them in the store or there is an eiruv in the area, I see absolutely no problem with what he did.

Yes there is an eruv in the area, so that probably explains it then, he must have have pre-ordered and pre-paid, and no...there's not really any room for him to eat in the store. I never thought of that possibility so thanks for explaining. Your explanation makes the most sense since he seemed to be walking and the shop is only about a 5 minute walk from the Orthodox shul.

I asked my kids about this in order to challenge them. They were appalled that it's even a question. The consensus among them is that it's not shabbosdik and that it's something you do during the week and not on shabbat. They said it's like taking the subway when it's stopping anyway [I asked about getting on a shabbat elevator and the oldest one said that doesn't sit well with her either unless you really have to because you can't climb stairs] or going window shopping at the mall. I then asked what's the difference between reading at home and at the library. They said: 1. it's public and 2. you can also look through your clothes in your closet on shabbat but that doesn't mean you can go window shopping on shabbat.
They seemed to think the issue isn't what you're reading but that it's public. And people might think you're there to use the computer or that it's ok to check out books [ie you are just handing the books to the librarian who is doing the melacha; since maybe someone would think it's ok, and they see you at the library, there's a risk they would put two and two together]. I then asked if it's more Jewish to drink scotch and eat herring during haftorah leining or to go to the library shabbat afternoon. Thank goodness they said kiddish club is no more Jewish. Then I asked them if they would think someone at the library is doing something wrong. At which point they got fed up with the discussion.

Smart kids, they must take after their mother...

Maybe not yeshivish frum, but dati leumi frum, I'm sure there are. They're not open on Shabbos, but they could be and a Shabbosdik atmosphere could be maintained and all of these marit ayin problems could be avoided. Like I said earlier, it's inappropriate because it's perceived as inappropriate and not because there's something inherently wrong with it.

I once knew a guy who was losing his grip on yiddishkeit, and the example given to me of his slide off of being frum is that he would walk to Borders on Shabbos and read there.

The implication being...?

The implication being that he was "leaving the fold" so to speak. Just like your kids would be appalled, so would the average frum Jew.

What about going to a public park on shabbat? Better or worse than a public library?

You changed your post. GOING to a public park and PLAYING BALL in a public park are very different.

On a practical level, the library I go to has semi-automatic doors, so it wouldn't be an option. Then you have the problem with reading secular books, another strike. You also have the problems of doing something not Shabbosdik and of possible maras ayin.

Now, playing ball on Shabbos on the grass in a park is halachically problematic as well. It's frowned upon by the poskim. I don't know if you can decide which of the two options are MORE problematic halachically, but I would assume the general population would frown upon the library more than the park, especially because I'm assuming we're talking about kids in the park, and adults in the library. If I would see a group of adults playing tackle football on Shabbos afternoon, I'd be pretty horrified, almost as much as seeing them go into the library.

However, if you're talking about parents talking their kids to the swings in the park, or going for a walk in the park, on Shabbos, I don't have a problem with that.

it depends on what goes on in said park.

about the shul in a mall, the one i know of, the door they use is totally different than the mall enterance and the offices are closed on shabbos.

Let's say chas veshalom, lo aleinu rachmana litzlan, kids playing in the sand, maybe even digging, other kids running chasing a ball, boys and girls talking, married men and married women conversing and sharing schooling and child rearing experiences, kids on swings...whatever it is people not torah true do in parks on shabbat afternoons.

I have never seen such a thing at least not in my area!!

ok, forget about the ball playing. let's say there are no "halachic" issues, and it's a matter of swings and talking. what's the difference between a public library, which the concessus seems to be is inappropriate, and a public park, which I've seen even the [certain demographic] do. A park is public, like a library, and just like at a library there's a concern someone will think you're checking books out so too at the park maybe someone will think you're about to take a ball out of your bag and start kicking it around. What's the difference, and why are parks considered acceptable?

On a different but not unrelated topic a very charismatic and important speaker on a subject relevant to my work as a lactation consultant (so partly lesheym mitzvah...) has been invited to a conference in central London on a Shabbos in October. Another frum colleague of mine and I were debating whether it would be shayach to walk to the conference, having sent our food ahead; just for the chance of hearing this guru. I asked MH and he said there was no actual issur if we didn't write anything obviously, but it was not appropriate and so not in the spirit of Shabbos, that he wouldn't want me to do it. Just after this, I heard that the same speaker has been invited to speak in J'lm just after Shavuos . on a weekday!....

Yeah, that's a real issue, for many, many people. I've had this discussion before on h.com and it's been mentioned on h.com. It's really not so simple and it's problematic, but I know of torah truers who would go on shabbat, or who have gone in the past when necessary for parnassah...that deserves a thread of its own. There are a number of poskim who deal with this. In short, it's very problematic, but apparently people do it regardless.
Funny how some of those same people would likely consider a public library inappropriate.


B'H you must live in a makom torah.

Do you have an answer to your own question, or are you just testing us?

A public library is inherently not Jewish (even if they do have Kosher by Design on their shelves). A park is non-denominational.

Neither. I'm inviting discussion.


Pardon? Are you serious? If true, then you shouldn't be going to a public library during the week either, any more than you would go to a church. But I'm assuming we're talking about people who would go during the week, even if they sneak in so their neighbors won't see them so it won't negatively impact the shidduch prospects of the siblings.

I would argue that a public library is also non-denominational.

A church is religious. A library is also non-denominational officially, but it's a secular in-the-world place, whereas a park isn't. Listen, even if I can't pin down the exact difference, it's different...especially because I don't know how you can pull off going to the library without violating some sort of halacha.

[Who sneaks into the library??? Maybe they sneak their internet activities in the library, but the library itself?]

Tell me the halachah you necessarily violate by going on shabbat, assuming you're only reading back issues of Olameinu, the doors aren't automatic, you're not doing borer with the books...anyway, I though people were saying a library is inappropriate, not forbidden. If there are halachic issues, then it's forbidden, no?


Because [certain demographic] people go to the park but not the library?

Maybe those people don't think it's forbidden. I personally think it's inappropriate, and although not inherently forbidden (going to the library=forbidden), I don't see how one can pull of going there without doing anything questionable.


You know melech, contrary to what you might believe, [certain demographic] people keep Shabbos, kosher, halacha, and not just when it's convenient and when they can skew it to what they like. You stand a much greater chance of doing something forbidden when going to the library than when going to the park. If it would be like you said, that there's no problem with the doors, there's no problem with the reading material, there's no problem with sorting the books, then maybe, maybe, going to the library would be more accepted. However, that's not reality. Going to the library is usually halachically problematic, going to the park for a stroll is not.

Live and learn.


Assuming the doors are just doors, I don't see how a public library risks halachic violations - that's a bit of a stretch, to say to stay away from a libarary because you might pick up, what, a business book? Then why do people read newspapers on shabbat full of ads?

As for the park, I can list for you a whole wack of potential halachic problems, real problems, not the make believe problems in a library. Kids digging, or running where there is tall grass, or picking up sticks...come on, a park is a halachic nightmare waiting to happen.

So I asked my son the same question.

"Are you allowed to go into a library on shabbos?"
"Why not? There's nothing muktzeh there."
"What about computers?"
"So don't go on the computers."
"I meant a goyishe library, with goyishe books."
"Oooohhhhh. Of course it's assur."

Kids can often cut to the chase on these things.

I agree with you that a park is a halachic nightmare waiting to happen. However, we're not comparing apples to apples here. In the library scenario, you're talking about a solitary adult going in. In the park scenario, we're talking about children, which makes it a different story.

Look, I don't remember ever going to a park as a kid on Shabbos. Aside from walking from friend to friend, we basically stayed indoors. However, I would still be a lot more horrified by someone going into a library on Shabbos than someone taking their kids to the park.

I don't know about that - I was assuming kids at the library. I'm not sure how kids at the library are different, just that they need to be educated about borer, and which books are permitted and which are forbidden on shabbat, about writing on the page edges, pages stuck together, bathrooms with automatic sinks or flushers...a trip to the library sounds like an opportunity to educate.



Right, that's what I'm trying to explore, why that is, why a library engenders feelings of horror, but not a park.

You know what this reminds me of? When you go to an amusement park or a grocery store to buy potatoes on Chol Hamoed Pesach, and there are all the smells and sights of chometz food around you.

Maybe because a library is "goyish" and a park isn't?

Why is a library goyish? And if it is, why is it ok during the week?

I think the difference is the general connotation and kavannah for a library and a park.

When someone thinks of a park, they think of recreation, relaxation, going for a stroll, shmoozing with friends etc.. It is inherently a relaxation and recreational place, and it is poshut. There is no technology, people generally don't associate it with being "vochdik", or even melacha. Also the nature of the material there is entirely vochdik. It's an inherently secular place.

A Library is quite different. It's main function is to do research, look things up, take out books and other media. Yes some people go there to read but at least to me that is not the first thing that comes to mind and not the main function of a library. A library is inherently a "vochdik" place for vochdik activities.

People go to a park when they want to relax, most people don't go to a library....

"Most" people don't, but some enjoy browsing books and reading for a bit. Different people enjoy different things. Why all this over-the-top shock and horror??

How can it not be? On Shabbos we're supposed to be more kadosh than during the week.

Don't forget that it is very not poshut to open up the library books since they have writting stamped on the side. (As you posek.)
I see it like this. If a place closes on holidays then it is a non holiday place. Libraries close on holidays. Parks, on the other hand, are open on holidays. (But you can upshlug me from the fact that the Lubavitcher Rebbe did tashlich in the Botanical Gardens. I think they close on holidays. In fact, once they were closed on Rosh Hashana so the chasidim made a human ladder for the Rebbe to climb to get over the gate.)
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I understand that. And therefore there are library books we can't read on shabbat even though we can read them during the week. Just like we can't run through tall grass on shabbat in the park.
I'm not getting why sitting down to read old copies of Olomeinu or a copy of some Jewish content book that you don't happen to have at home in less kadosh than yapping in the park while your kid is picking up leaves, rachmana litzlan. For that matter, I'm not even sure why reading a book in the library is worse than yapping with your kiddush club buddies over scotch and herring during haftorah.
I understand we have to be more kadosh on shabbat than during the week. I'm asking why a park is more kadosh than a library.

And I'm still not getting why a library is "goyish". What does that even mean? Because they are repositories of knowledge?


Yes, and I mentioned that above. None of these issues are insurmountable, just as there being sticks on the ground in the park that are attractive to 6 year old boys is not an insurmountable problem.


A park is for running around. Hardly shabbosdik.
And yes, a library is relaxing. Just like people find reading books at home relaxing. But in a library there can be an exciting collection of books you don't own.
And this technology thing is red herring - so libraries these days tend to have computers. That's what you're clinging to? But libraries were perfectly fine before the Internet age?
A library is a place to find books. Yes, people do research and take notes there. But it's primarily a place where they have books people can borrow to read. Not vastly unlike a beit midrash in that sense. Anyway, I once saw a guy taking notes from the gemara. So I guess a beit midrash is vochdik as well. Or is that "learning" as opposed to "research"?

But as your kids said, it's just not a shabbosdik thing to do.
if you think the park is also a problem on shabbos than you shouldn't go there either, but you will see amny frum jews at a park on shabbos and none at the library.

I asked why a library is more problematic than a park.




And I'm asking why that is.

why can't the answer be because it's just not done.
I don't go to my local coffee place, where I get a specific coffee every day, and pre pay so I can have my coffee on shabbos. Is it assur? I don't think so but it's just not done.

If a library has an atrium does it have a din of a library or a park?