Howdy. I stumbled onto this forum as I was looking for an internet messageboard with frum yidden knowledgeable in Torah. I have been doing much thinking about the Kuzari Principle, and I have come to the conclusion that it is an untenable proof of the Sinai revelation. I would like to discuss/debate the issue with someone who knows the principle well (and yes, I have read virtually all the literature on this, including Rabbi Gottlieb).

I am asking for permission to discuss this topic in advance because I notice that many people seem to get very offended when this topic comes up. I am looking for tough rebuttals to my problems with Kuzari, but I must stress that I am interested in an insult-free discussion.

So, may I proceed? Is anyone interested in having this conversation with me?

Who Wrote the Bible?

You know how sometimes at the end of a movie there is a twist that suddenly changes your understanding of everything that happened before? Events which you previously thought you understood take on a whole new meaning. Think about the climax of The Sixth Sense, for example.

I had that experience when I realized who Ezra HaSofer ("the scribe") probably was. We were taught that he was called "the scribe" because, you know, he was a scribe. He copied Torahs; he even made a couple of small corrections, according to some of the sages.

What an understatement! He wasn't Ezra HaSofer; he was Ezra HaSOFER! He didn't correct a few errors; he basically compiled/wrote (redacted) what we now call the Torah!

In hindsight, everything makes sense. There were so many clues.

The Clues

First of all, a plain reading of Nechemiya (Nehemia) 8 implies that Ezra revealed a Torah which was at least partially new to the people:

1 all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the broad place that was before the water gate; and they spoke unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the Law of Moses, which HaShem had commanded to Israel.
2 And Ezra the priest brought the Law before the congregation, both men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.
3 And he read therein before the broad place that was before the water gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women, and of those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the Law...
5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people--for he was above all the people--and when he opened it, all the people stood up.
6 And Ezra blessed HaShem, the great G-d. And all the people answered: 'Amen, Amen', with the lifting up of their hands; and they bowed their heads, and fell down before HaShem with their faces to the ground...
8 And they read in the book, in the Law of G-d, distinctly; and they gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
9 And Nehemiah, who was the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people: 'This day is holy unto HaShem your G-d; mourn not, nor weep.' For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the Law...
12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
13 And on the second day were gathered together the heads of fathers' houses of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to give attention to the words of the Law.
14 And they found written in the Law, how that HaShem had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month;
15 and that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying: 'Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and branches of wild olive, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written.'
16 So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of G-d, and in the broad place of the water gate, and in the broad place of the gate of Ephraim.
17 And all the congregation of them that were come back out of the captivity made booths, and dwelt in the booths; for since the days of Joshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.
18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the Law of G-d. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the ordinance. (JPS)



They had never celebrated Sukkot (The Feast of Booths) in that country! ("Since the days of Joshua.") Apologists will tell you that the people had simply forgotten the Torah and Ezra was bringing it back to them. However, Richard Friedman points out that in Leviticus 23, the laws for Sukkot seem to be added on to the list of holidays. The list goes from verses 4-37 and ends, "These are the holidays of Hashem." Then, two verses later, it suddenly starts listing the laws of Sukkot. This makes sense in hindsight. Combined with evidence (Neh 8:17, above) that Sukkot wasn't celebrated until Ezra showed up with the Torah, it seems reasonable that Ezra added those verses to an earlier text when he redacted the Torah.

(Friedman brings many more arguments in support of Ezra being the redactor. For example, he points out that this is the first time in all of Tanakh that a finished copy of the Five Books appears. See Who Wrote the Bible for more.)

Second, there is evidence within the Torah that (at least) parts of it were written long after Moses' time:

So Moses the servant of HaShem died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of HaShem. And he was buried in the valley in the land of Moab over against Beth-peor; and no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. (Deuteronomy 6:34)

And there hath not arisen a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom HaShem knew face to face. (Deuteronomy 34:10)

These were the kings who reigned in the land of Edom before there was any king reigning over the descendants of Yisrael. (Gen. 36:1)

And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he led forth his trained men, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued as far as Dan. (Genesis 14:14)



As this article points out, "no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day" doesn't make sense if it was written during Moses' time; "And there hath not arisen a prophet since" has the same problem; "before there was any king reigning over the descendants of Yisrael" makes no sense before King Saul's reign; and "Dan" wasn't named "Dan" until long after Moses' death (Judges 18:29.)

The Jewish Tradition

Although obviously the Jewish tradition has Ezra making some minor edits at the most, there are some remnants of Ezra's real importance to the Torah. The Talmud, for example, compares him favorably with Moses himself.

In the Talmud, it says:

It has been taught: R. Jose said: Had Moses not preceded him, Ezra would have been worthy of receiving the Torah for Israel. Of Moses it is written, And Moses went up unto God, and of Ezra it is written, He, Ezra, went up from Babylon. As the going up of the former refers to the [receiving of the] Law, so does the going up of the latter. Concerning Moses, it is stated: And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments; and concerning Ezra, it is stated: For Ezra had prepared his heart to expound the law of the Lord [his God] to do it and to teach Israel statutes and judgments. And even though the Torah was not given through him, its writing was changed through him, as it is written: And the writing of the letter was written in the Aramaic character and interpreted into the Aramaic [tongue]. And again it is written, And they could not read the writing nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof. Further, it is written: And he shall write the copy [mishneh] of this law, — in writing which was destined to be changed. --Sanhedrin (21b - 22a)



Other Sources of Evidence

There is also evidence from outside of the mainstream Jewish tradition that people believed Ezra wrote or redacted the Torah as early as the 1st century CE. Ezra 4 (otherwise known as 2 Esdras, which is "Ezra" in Latin) was written in the 1st or 2nd century. (Ezra 1 & 2 are Ezra and Nehemia.) Although it's not in the Jewish Tanakh or accepted by most Christians as scriptural, "the Ethiopian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox consider it canonical." (Wikipedia.)

Ezra 4 is a truly fascinating book. According to it, the original Torah was burned up in the fire that destroyed the first Temple. God appears in a bush and re-teaches the Torah to Ezra:


1: And it came to pass upon the third day, I sat under an oak, and, behold, there came a voice out of a bush over against me, and said, Esdras, Esdras.
2: And I said, Here am I, Lord And I stood up upon my feet.
3: Then said he unto me, In the bush I did manifestly reveal myself unto Moses, and talked with him, when my people served in Egypt...
19: Then answered I before thee, and said,
20: Behold, Lord, I will go, as thou hast commanded me, and reprove the people which are present: but they that shall be born afterward, who shall admonish them? thus the world is set in darkness, and they that dwell therein are without light.
21: For thy law is burnt, therefore no man knoweth the things that are done of thee, or the work that shall begin.
22: But if I have found grace before thee, send the Holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath been done in the world since the beginning, which were written in thy law, that men may find thy path, and that they which will live in the latter days may live.
23: And he answered me, saying, Go thy way, gather the people together, and say unto them, that they seek thee not for forty days.
24: But look thou prepare thee many box trees, and take with thee Sarea, Dabria, Selemia, Ecanus, and Asiel, these five which are ready to write swiftly;
25: And come hither, and I shall light a candle of understanding in thine heart, which shall not be put out, till the things be performed which thou shalt begin to write.
26: And when thou hast done, some things shalt thou publish, and some things shalt thou shew secretly to the wise: to morrow this hour shalt thou begin to write.
27: Then went I forth, as he commanded, and gathered all the people together, and said,
28: Hear these words, O Israel.
29: Our fathers at the beginning were strangers in Egypt, from whence they were delivered:
30: And received the law of life, which they kept not, which ye also have transgressed after them.
31: Then was the land, even the land of Sion, parted among you by lot: but your fathers, and ye yourselves, have done unrighteousness, and have not kept the ways which the Highest commanded you.
32: And forasmuch as he is a righteous judge, he took from you in time the thing that he had given you.
33: And now are ye here, and your brethren among you.
34: Therefore if so be that ye will subdue your own understanding, and reform your hearts, ye shall be kept alive and after death ye shall obtain mercy.
35: For after death shall the judgment come, when we shall live again: and then shall the names of the righteous be manifest, and the works of the ungodly shall be declared.
36: Let no man therefore come unto me now, nor seek after me these forty days.
37: So I took the five men, as he commanded me, and we went into the field, and remained there.
38: And the next day, behold, a voice called me, saying, Esdras, open thy mouth, and drink that I give thee to drink.
39: Then opened I my mouth, and, behold, he reached me a full cup, which was full as it were with water, but the colour of it was like fire.
40: And I took it, and drank: and when I had drunk of it, my heart uttered understanding, and wisdom grew in my breast, for my spirit strengthened my memory:
41: And my mouth was opened, and shut no more.
42: The Highest gave understanding unto the five men, and they wrote the wonderful visions of the night that were told, which they knew not: and they sat forty days, and they wrote in the day, and at night they ate bread.
43: As for me. I spake in the day, and I held not my tongue by night.
44: In forty days they wrote two hundred and four books.
45: And it came to pass, when the forty days were filled, that the Highest spake, saying, The first that thou hast written publish openly, that the worthy and unworthy may read it:
46: But keep the seventy last, that thou mayest deliver them only to such as be wise among the people:
47: For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the stream of knowledge.
48: And I did so.



Now obviously I don't expect my Orthodox Jewish or fundamentalist Christian readers to just take Ezra 4's word for it. But it is an indication of an ancient tradition that Ezra (re-)wrote of the Torah.

Conclusion

None of this evidence is conclusive. It's impossible to say for sure whether Ezra was indeed the redactor, or whether there even was a single redactor. The Documentary Hypothesis argues that there were at least four distinct authors of the Five Books (J, E, P, and D) and that there was a fifth person who was the redactor.

To summarize, we know (1)that parts of the Torah seem to have been written long after Moses' death (2) that Ezra at least re-introduced the people to the Torah, including teaching them about Sukkot for apparently the first time; (3) that Ezra is known as "the scribe" and is compared favorably to Moses (!) by the Talmud; (4) that even in the mainstream Jewish tradition there is acceptance that Ezra at least made minor edits to the Torah; and (5) that there is an entire book from 2,000 years ago (albeit a few hundred years after Ezra's time) that claims Ezra wrote the current version of the Torah. It's enough for me to conclude that it is probable that Ezra was the redactor.

The question that arises from this is why would you choose to 'have faith' in something? You don't have faith that there is a gigantic teapot orbiting the sun or that zeus exists so why do you choose to have faith in a G-d?

Because if someone tells you 10 things, and you see that 9 of them are true and the system in general seems to be sound, it makes sense to take their word on the 10th thing as well even though you have no way to verify that it is true. Especially when the entire system rests on this one thing being true...

if someone tells you 10 things, and you see that 9 of them are true and the system in general seems to be sound, it makes sense to take their word on the 10th thing as well even though you have no way to verify that it is true. Especially when the entire system rests on this one thing being true...

Also the fact that so many people who were infinitely greater and more knowledgeable than me not only believed it, but dedicated their entire lives and were even moser nefesh for it makes it much easier to make that leap of faith...

Wow, ok...I didn't expect to get such a pessimistic view of the Kuzari "proof" on a predominantly frum message board.

Most frums that I have met put a lot of stock into it...

In a nutshell, my problem with the Kuzari proof is that there are a myriad of plausible historical scenarios in which such a tradition (of mass revelation) could have come to exist without the event having actually historically occured.

I won't go into details since it seems that you folks have come to a similar conclusion.

Which leads us back to square One: if belief in the truth of G-d and Torah are not subject to outside evidence or formal logic, on what basis to we dismiss the "truth claims" of other religions? And on what basis can we claim that our beliefs reflect reality?

In a nutshell, my problem with the Kuzari proof is that there are a myriad of plausible historical scenarios in which such a tradition (of mass revelation) could have come to exist without the event having actually historically occured.

Such as?

Such as?

Imagine a people steeped in idol worship, or maybe just back from exile in Babylon. A child king or a priestly scribe purports to "discover" a lost scroll which tells of a mass revelation. The continuous chain of tradition had been lost, so it's no surprise that the Zeidy Tammuz and Bubbie Ishtar can't confirm such a tradition, nor that they can't deny it.

Imagine a people steeped in idol worship, or maybe just back from exile in Babylon. A child king or a priestly scribe purports to "discover" a lost scroll which tells of a mass revelation. The continuous chain of tradition had been lost, so it's no surprise that the Zeidy Tammuz and Bubbie Ishtar can't confirm such a tradition, nor that they can't deny it.

I see. And based on that they decide to give up cheese burgers, Saturday college football, and planting crops every seven years.

I see. And based on that they decide to give up cheese burgers, Saturday college football, and planting crops every seven years.

Welcome to Hashkafah.com I've never heard "frum" used as a noun...
right.
right."Because we're better than the goyim so our BS is better than their BS" is the underlying script of any answer you'll get on that question. Oh, and some also involve "Scientists are evil atheists with an agenda".

krumlikeapretzel, what exactly is your stance on Judaism's and Torah's truth, then?

My stance is that I have no stance, since if I had a stance you can pretty much figure what it would be...

My stance is that I have no stance, since if I had a stance you can pretty much figure what it would be...

Why do you have 2,000+ posts on a religious Jewish messageboard then?

Why do you have 2,000+ posts on a religious Jewish messageboard then?

If stretched previously held superstitions and local customs, then why not?

That's another question altogether, about why people give up material things and worldly pleasures for religious reasons. Personally, I never understood why people perfectly happy with their Saturday college football would buy into the Outreachers' arguments, but apparently many do. Apparently there's an appeal to religious argument, even if false, which is why there are like billions of nonJews, for instance, including many who have ritual practices that include self denial.

I don't buy it. Look around Jews are the most stiff-necked people in the world. Even look at H.com. I don't see how millions of people could fall for something like that considering everything it entailed giving up unless they were pretty darn sure it all added up.

I don't buy it. Look around Jews are the most stiff-necked people in the world. Even look at H.com. I don't see how millions of people could fall for something like that considering everything it entailed giving up unless they were pretty darn sure it all added up.

Not even for a juicy piece of real estate?

Because there are also benefits to torah living, at least according to the Outreachers. Family time on shabbat, a time to rejuvinate, THM makes for happiness, kosher is healthy, modesty is empowering, promises of olam haba and never blowing up on an airplane if you are sure to return lost articles and promises never to be run over by a commuter train on your way to making minyan in the morning at a level crossing, matzah ball soup, a happy and fulfilling marriage...the list goes on and on. There are no shortage of simpletons - they are exchanging Saturday night football not for leaving their land fallow every seven years, but for the feel good fuzziness the Outreachers promise.

Melech, what is the benefit of not planting for a full year? Sounds awfully irresponsible to me!

I have no idea. But I can imagine Outreachers insisting leaving land fallow for a year improves the agricultural output. Don't modern farming techniques have similar principles? Isn't that one of the lessons of the dust bowl?

I see. And based on that they decide to give up cheese burgers, Saturday college football, and planting crops every seven years.

Melech, what is the benefit of not planting for a full year? Sounds awfully irresponsible to me!

I see. Tell people not to plant food and they'll go along willy-nilly. Makes loads of sense. You convinced me.

I don't see how millions of people could fall for something like that considering everything it entailed giving up unless they were pretty darn sure it all added up.

Not only that, they divorced their wives. And yes, that's what happened - none of them remembered anything Ezra had to say, but based on what he told them they divorced their wives and took on a lot of restrictions. Whether or not the Torah is from Mt. Sinai, the facts of Sefer Ezra totally repudiates the Kuzari proof.

RebP, your position is famously argued by David Weiss Halivni as part of the "chatu yisrael" hypothesis. You might like his books if you haven't seen them.

Now, these were not the only Jews in the world at the time - the Jews in Bavel apparently had traditions that were at least roughly in agreement with Ezra, since Nechemya came along afterwards and backed Ezra up. So saying Ezra made it all up is not really tenable. Halivni argues that Ezra took several "versions" of Torah and tried to harmonize them into one book, and really everyone agrees (including most academics) that at least parts of the Torah text go back many centuries before Ezra. So the idea that Ezra wrote it all from scratch is not plausible.





Don't assume people were frum... haven't you learned that shemitta was historically almost never kept by the average person? That's from Ezra too - about Bayit Rishon (it appears it was kept in Bayit Sheini, at least by many people.) Don't assume that the first generation agreed to do shemitta - it might have taken 100 years for that idea to become accepted.

Don't assume people were frum... haven't you learned that shemitta was historically almost never kept by the average person? That's from Ezra too - about Bayit Rishon (it appears it was kept in Bayit Sheini, at least by many people.) Don't assume that the first generation agreed to do shemitta - it might have taken 100 years for that idea to become accepted.

Yes, that's true. But the first generation would still have to accept the Torah knowing it said 3 million people saw G-d at the same time and therefore one day you won't plant once every seven years and will rely solely on the G-d you saw.

But even according to the Mesorah that's exactly what they did!

The TRADITIONAL explanation of what happened is that they had no mesorah of Torah and took Ezra's word for it. Regardless of whether Ezra was telling the truth, it appears that they were willing to believe it WITHOUT THEIR OWN MESORAH. So the entire Kuzari principle is proven false.

Read Ezra - they did not have a Mesorah at all, and yet they accepted it.

But why did Ezra accept it? What did he have to gain?

That's no longer the Kuzari principle! Now we are down to a single point of failure!

Why did Ezra believe it? Perhaps because it was true (the traditional belief). Perhaps because he thought it was true but he was misled. Perhaps he had some economic or political motive. Who knows?

But look where you've retreated! The Kuzari principle is that millions of people wouldn't accept the Torah if they didn't have their own tradition - except that we know that at a critical juncture in history (sefer Ezra) that the Jews of Israel accepted the Torah without their own tradition based solely on Ezra's word. So the Kuzari principle is false.

Your new question is "but why would Ezra lie?" Why would Joseph Smith lie? Why would Paul lie? Why would Mohammed lie? Why would anyone who claimed to know a truth about God that NO ONE ELSE KNEW lie? I don't know, but the Kuzari principle doesn't help at all.

Was it really solely on Ezra's word?

Because there are also benefits to torah living, at least according to the Outreachers. Family time on shabbat, a time to rejuvinate, THM makes for happiness, kosher is healthy, modesty is empowering, promises of olam haba and never blowing up on an airplane if you are sure to return lost articles and promises never to be run over by a commuter train on your way to making minyan in the morning at a level crossing, matzah ball soup, a happy and fulfilling marriage...the list goes on and on. There are no shortage of simpletons - they are exchanging Saturday night football not for leaving their land fallow every seven years, but for the feel good fuzziness the Outreachers promise.

But why did Ezra accept it? What did he have to gain?

But by the same token, if that feel good fuzziness were not true, the very same people that bought into it should renounce it as soon as they see that it is false. The fact that a great many don't is a sign that it might not be so fuzzy after all....

* is there a term for them? Isn't born again for Protestants only?

What does the rabbinical establishment have to gain through the Torah?

The kosher food industry including shechitos, and more recently hashgachos
Back then the donations to the beis hamikdash and the kohanim/leviim, including maaser rishon, trumah, korbanos, etc.
The sta"m industry
The techeles industry
Institutionalizing their arbitrary likes and dislikes including sexism and male chauvinism; homophobia and heteronormatism; nationalism, xenophobia and shunning of intermarriage; disaproval of the competition (avodah zarah)...
More recently the institution of kolels...

do I need to go on?

Nor do "baal teshuvah" Catholics* renounce Catholocism...so maybe that's a sign that Catholocism is true after all. Reality is that people like religion, warts and all.

* is there a term for them? Isn't born again for Protestants only?

Melech, what is the benefit of not planting for a full year? Sounds awfully irresponsible to me!

Are you kidding? Planting and harvesting the same soil without pause (and without modern fertilization methods) will leave the soil entirely devoid of fertility within a few years...

...many agricultural civilizations have developed methods of crop rotation, for example, dividing the land into 4 squares, but only planting on 3 in any given year, rotating the "empty lot."

Was it really solely on Ezra's word?

I see. So rather than rotating letting a different field lie fallow each year it makes perfect sense to let EVERY field in the entire country lie fallow the SAME year.

I see. So rather than rotating letting a different field lie fallow each year it makes perfect sense to let EVERY field in the entire country lie fallow the SAME year.