What makes one be or not be Inwardly Observant? How does one go OT Inward D*?


Triggered by some posts in the sides in a divorce thread. This is a serious question.

*Off The Inward Derech

Sounds like Orthoprax.

Do you mean off the inward derech? Why wouldn't you just say so?

What does Orthoprax mean? You don't believe in God? You do things out of habit? You wish you weren't frum? You don't follow halacha when no one sees? You fall in your observance? You don't care?
Can you be Inwardly Observant if you don't follow halacha at all? How?

The concept that "Judaism Is All About Appearances" is different than the concept of Orthoprax. The latter means you keep halacha but you don't believe in G0d or the Torah or whatever. The former is about social mores and how these days you're judged on extra-halachic/minhagic behaviors such as the color of your Shabbos tablecloth.

So Judaism is all about appearances doesn't have anything to do with Inward Observance? Or is it the same thing, and Inwardly Observant follow halacha but not the extra-halachic/minhagic stuff?

Also, what's G0d?

Orthoprax means you practice all the rituals but don't believe in it.

Not generally, although that is between [wo]man and her/his Creator..

What? I'm confused. Halachically and minhagically you do not have to use a white tablecloth for Shabbos. Anyone who does it either does it because they like it, stam, or because they think you have to because other people will judge you negatively if you don't. That's not being more frum on any level.


G-d. I like using the zero instead of the dash. It's my new thing.

Thank you for putting what I was going to attempt to write, into words.

In that case (if Outwardly Observant is synonymous to Orthoprax) the term Outwardly Observant seems misused. Are those who use it in reference to some relatively average Orthodox Jews implying that they don't believe in halacha? Or is there something else to it, too?

Somewhat fair enough.

Are you sure about that?

Never heard that term.

Not true. Some people do it because they have a minhag, or they feel that it's kavod Shabbos. Depending on how you define frum, it may make them more frum. It's definitely doing something for the sake of Judaism.




First I wrote OTID but realized it was too ambiguous. So I tried to preserve the OTD while adding my word. Oh, well.

At 2 a.m. it's hard to be sure about anything, but I think so.

http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?showtop...mp;#entry877091 -- Inwardly Observant used by Jeanette.

Outwardly Observant and similar terms are sprinkled throughout the board.

I dispute that it's a real minhag.


So people who use black and brown and purple and yellow and blue and green tablecloths or no tablecloths because they have stunning mahogany tables aren't doing something l'kavod Shabbos and for the sake of Judaism?

New minhag: Having carnations for Shabbos means you are more frum than having or any other flower. Let the turning down of shidduchim begin.

That's not the point. The point, I believe, is the reason for them doing it. If it's not a minhag, maybe they're stupid for not checking out the sources for their own minhagim, but they're not doing it for insincere reasons which can point to them being non-Inwardly Observant.


I didn't say that. If people feel there's some kabalistic or minhagic reason for the action, which makes it special for Shabbos, or just that they have something different for Shabbos, it's a nice thing for them.

If you decide to reserve carnations for Shabbos, and decorate your table with other flowers during the week, then yes, you're doing something special for Shabbos. If it makes one holier-than-thou, then it's not something nice. But that's with everything.

Maybe they're doing it because they're afraid if they don't their kid won't get a good shidduch. And that's what "Judaism Is All About Appearances" means. And thus we get back to my first post in this thread.

I think we're going in circles here because you haven't adequately defined your question or your terms.

I've often wondered if fear of the "Eyen Herah" is more important than "Yirat Shamayim" in determining how people act.

Not really sure what the question is, but if you're going with the assumption that outward appearance isn't an indication of private mitzvah observance, then one cannot make assumptions about someone either way based on their outer appearance. You can't assume that they're extra frum because they have a beard and long payos, but neither can you assume that they're really barely observant of the important bein adam l'chaveiro mitzvos and the appearance is just for show.

If you wanted to be more "inwardly observant" you would be as careful or more careful in the mitzvos that no one knows about as you are in the mitzvos that everyone knows about. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should change your outer appearance to conform with how people think those who dress like you should act, or how people who act like you should dress.

Maybe. Maybe not. What I'm saying is that there being no source doesn't make it insincere.

So here are my two questions:
a. What does Inwardly Observant mean?
b. A chosid answers with a story, so:
Miss X once told a friend and me that we were behaving in a manner of pritzus. Later I found a dumb romance novel on another friend's desk, and asked if she was enjoying it, so friend B said that it was Miss X's, and friend A said, see, that's 'fake frum'.
What's fake frum? What's frum inside?


I see.