THE RAMBAM'S THIRTEEN PRINCIPLES OF JEWISH FAITH

1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

2. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our G-d He was, He is, and He will be.

3. I believe with perfect faith that G-d does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.

4. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is first and last.

5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to G-d. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.

6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses is absolutely true. He was the chief of all prophets, both before and after Him.

8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.

9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be another given by G-d.

10. I believe with perfect faith that G-d knows all of man's deeds and thoughts. It is thus written (Psalm 33:15), "He has molded every heart together, He understands what each one does."

11. I believe with perfect faith tha G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.

12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.

13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.

Bit insecure after the Kuzari's demolition?

Interestingly the Rambam doesn't write about the Kuzari here.

Interesting that he finds it necessary to bring a riyah from a passuk DAVKA here....

For that matter, neither did the Rambam write the ani ma'amins which are a popular adaptation of the Rambam's mishnah commentary.

So what?

So the Rambam doesn't write about anything here because the Rambam didn't write this.

So you didn't post a translation of the Rambam's 13 principles of faith. The Rambam would probably look at your list and deny ownership.

This reminds me of the joke when the Rambam goes up to shamayim and finds two angels arguing over a shver passage in the Mishne Torah....

These are simply an abbreviations of the Rambam's principles which as you said were written in his commentary to the Mishna (specifically in the tenth chapter of the tract of Sanhedrin.) These ARE his 13 principles so why would he deny this is what he held? They were abbreviated so they could be said every day and made into catchy Chabad songs. I don't see what you are all making a stink over.

Actually, if you go back and read the Rambam's ikkari emunah, you will see that he does not say this at all. What he says is that Moshe did not make up any portion of the Torah. It makes no claim about the Torah that we now have.

Indeed, it is almost certain that the Torah we have in our hands now is NOT letter-for-letter the Torah that Moshe received. I blogged about this here:
http://wolfishmusings.blogspot.com/2008/01...at-you-don.html

The Wolf

I guess the Torah Codes prove that! *duck*

Interesting, and i see your point. However, if G-D gave the Torah to the jewish people for generation to generation, how could he have allowed it to be altered. What was the purpose of giving over the Torah, if he knew eventualy it would be altered town the generations.

Nu, He meant for it to be altered.

Explain

If it got altered, then this is how it was meant to be, surely.

Still not following, if torah is absolute truth and the key to our ultimate purpose why would he allow it to be altered.
If it is altered what parts are we to take seriously. I can go on and on.
Not sure what your saying.

I'm just saying that if something happened, then do we not say that if one believes that everything in the world happens for a reason and is part of Hashem's plan, then if whatever part of Torah was perhaps altered at some point, then wouldn't you have to say that that, too, was part of Hashem's plan and happened for a reason?

No that makes the entire religion a sham. Word for word is taken seriously, take a look at any gemarah why is there an extra word obviously it is to teach us something b/c every word is from G-D. If not than the majority of what we do as Jews is for nothing. Either torah is complety perfect or else judaism as we know it is bogus.

Oh and look at principle 9.

that's a different question, I was just trying to answer your question as to why Hashem would give us His Torah if He knew the text would get altered later on. My answer was that if Hashem gave us the Torah, and it later got altered, and Hashem is infallible, then it must be that Hashem had felt it was worth it even if something does get altered.

Thats precisely why i dont beleive it could have been altered. G-D would not let it happen.

I was reading wikipedia on Abarbanel yesterday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Abrabanel and there it says:



So in fact, there may be no need for an axiomatic system of principles within Judaism. The question I have though is that since this is talking about one's internal beliefs, what is the minimum set one should have so that one can still be considered a Torah true Jew? Suppose I believe in nothing at all, yet meticulously keep every law in the shulchan aruch with stringencies. Am I 'all right' in the eyes of G-d? If not, what belief set should I have in my mind to qualify?

<h2 class="r">Amazon.com: Must a Jew Believe Anything?: Books: Menachem Kellner</h2><h2 class="r"></h2>

Don't want to read a book now. What's your answer?

The way I look at it is if you can go your entire life keeping all the Mitzvos and living k'halacha you must deep down have some emunah even if consiously you dont feel it.
B/c I dont think today most people have absolute Emunah Shleima. So if lets say I have 60% certainty or even 70% and live life k'halacha will I not get 100% Schar? so even if you are 98% uncertain yet you do all of it. So G-D will say wow you were only 2% sure and you still kept the mitzvos, theres gotta be some points just for that.

My answer is that if you believe in nothing at all and keep every halacha in the SA with stringencies, and you keep your non-belief relatively quiet, and not try to agitate people, you should still be alright in the eyes of G-d, in whom you don't believe. In fact, I think that you would possibly be MORE praiseworthy for keeping the halacha than someone who trembles with fear of Hashem every day. But I suppose it depends.

Look at the recent story about Mother Theresa's crisis of faith! I think she is MORE praiseworthy because of what she has done despite the crisis.

Emunah in what though? What do you mean by 'Emunah'?

Do you have to believe in techiyas hameisim? In a non-anthropomorphic G-d? In the coming of Moshiach? In that G-d gave the Torah through a direct revelation at Sinai? etc. etc.

What if you believe in a slightly different set of things? Or in the same set, but with different details?

I disagree. I think if you keep halacha while believing nothing, you are not quite alright at all in the eyes of G-d. Also, if belief is irrelevant, then one can believe in anything he wants right?

So let's a person believes in a bunch of pagan gods inside his mind, yet he also believes that they commanded him to keep the halachas in SA with stringencies. In keeping the halachas, he is actually serving these gods, in his mind. Would you say this is also alright then? If not, then where does one draw the line in the amorphous space of belief systems?

Thats tough, b/c unfortunatly you cant pick and choose. It would make life easier if you could but it seems from what I learned you have to accept the full package.
But look at it this way, if you beleive in G-D, and the holocaust can happen, you can believe that Moshiach can come and in techias hameisim.

So, if you lose all faith, and decide that from now on you'll be an atheist, would G-d want you to stop keeping halacha?



hmm.

For Elisha ben Avuyah his saving grace was Torah. If you learn the gemarah there were major issues of what to do with him since he did learn Torah.

It's true. But that only (only!) kept him out of gehenim it didn't get him into ganadin.

No. But it doesn't mean that you're 'alright' in G-d's eyes either.

Understood. But you see even without belief, Halacha and torah do have a influence. Why?.
I think b/c deep down we have that spark that something that keeps on believing regardless. Its the same as the gemarah in Kesubos, that when a man does not want to give his wife a get, you can beat him till he says Rotze ani. But why? he is only saying it out of fear, b/c, says tosfos, deep down "hu rotzeh".

And if deep down he does not want it, does it mean he will not say it? No matter how much you beat him?

Deep down everyone want to do the will of the Rabbis.

(At least back then).

It was an insight into humanity and our inner spirit. Deep down there is a "rotze ani" in all of us.


It was an insight into humanity and our inner spirit. Deep down there is a "rotze ani" in all of us.

It was an insight into humanity and our inner spirit. Deep down there is a "rotze ani" in all of us.

What do you mean by 'full package'? What are the components of this package?

I guess the 13 Ikarrim, in some form or another.

whatever that means... if you go according to the gemara in pirkei avos, and the way it's arguably been interpreted by those who disagree with the Rambam, then all of Israel has a share except for people who go out and proclaim various heresies publically.

So we've come full circle. That was my whole question originally. According to the opinions that disagree that there should be an axiomatic list as per the Rambam, what should the list be? What is the minimum 'package'?

Belief in halacha originating from one God?

But what about the nature of G-d (things like anthropomorphism, omnipotence, etc)? What about belief in reward and punishment? What about belief in the afterlife? Etc. etc.

Nimrod made Avraham go into the fire and he lived.
Haran jumped in after Avraham and was killed.
Avraham believed, he had faith.
Haran needed proof, which he got from Avraham, who was unharmed.Haran is undeserving of G-Ds intervention.
Obviously, this story has many questions attached to it, yet we see belief is a jewish virtue or principle.

Why is this an important question to you? If someone dosnt believe in these concepts, why should they keep any aspect of judaism?

The Rambam actually list in detail what makes someone all the different levels of kofer (i.e. apikores, min etc.). I was reading it in Aryeh Kaplan's book and would post it here but I left it at work...

Rambam got a lot of grief in his time for insisting on a non-corporeal G-d.



What about it?

One can easily get into much more grief now by insisting on a corporeal G-d. Starting from bizarre philosophical inelegancies of a Creator being made up of the created, to difficulties in differentiating between Judaism and Christianity in that case.



Should beliefs about them be part of the minimal package?