Since everything that I do that has always been considered "normal" is now considered sinning, what's the point of trying anymore? Why not become a full fledged sinner and stop bothering with my small efforts?

Every thing you do is choshuv by Hashem.

H.com is crawling with right-wingers and their crazy right-wing attitudes. If you stop reading H, you'll feel a lot better.

I don't think it's just h.com. Even when I don't read this site I start to feel my relatively small efforts aren't really worthwhile.

For every "nice" frummy (sorry for the word), there seems to be someone ready to say I'm going to hell for mixed swimming

So make a big effort. Find something that appeals to you in Judaism and make it your own.

When I look back upon my life
It's always with a sense of shame
I've always been the one to blame
For everything I long to do
No matter when or where or who
Has one thing in common, too

It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a sin
It's a sin
Everything I've ever done
Everything I ever do
Every place I've ever been
Everywhere I'm going to
It's a sin

At school they taught me how to be
So pure in thought and word and deed
They didn't quite succeed
For everything I long to do
No matter when or where or who
Has one thing in common, too

It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a sin...

The area you live in is even more right-wing than h.com.

I feel for you psychodad. It's like if you're censored and living with your boyfriend, then it feels funny going to shul and keeping kosher. I mean, not only do they not accept you anyway, they even censor who you are.


Yah, give it the ol' if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Find something YOU do better than THEM and shove that in their holier-than-thou faces. Seriously, is this cold war what it is all about?

I can only repeat what I said. Every mitzva or fullfillment of hallacha or chesed etc that you do is very choshuv to Hashem. And I'm a right winger BTW. I hope no one in particular is rejecting you.

Father forgive me....

You should watch Party Monster with McKully Culkin (or however its spelled), if you haven't already.
Its on the soundtrack.

I find a certain Rebbe's son appealing. Should I kidnap him?

There are other ways to make him your own.

Getting a private detective to find his wife cheating on him could be a start...

I'm not sure what's bothering you. Do you feel that people are accusing you of being sinful? Do you want people to stop considering certain behaviors sinful because they seem normal to you? Why not just accept that you do certain things that others find wrong, just like others do things that you find wrong? Unless you really do believe that they're wrong but you're not prepared to give them up.

I agree 100%. I don't know why I keep coming back here.


In some ways yes. In some ways no.

That's a bit rash, why not just become MO??? Then you'll be considered a "dos"....

Same reason I do -- boredom.

(See the K in the image? It's for the extra-mehadrin roaches.)

I thought he was MO already(?).

Who told you that everything you consider normal is considered sinning?

Because then you'll feel guilty. At least knowing you're trying you don't have to feel guilty that you're not trying.

I dont know exactly what you mean mean by "small" things, but even as a orthodox jew, I dont think that G-D is turning up the furnace when you are struggling with these small things. The mistake alot of us make is that we confuse sensitivities with sinning. Movies, balet, broadway shows are in my opinion are sensitivities, I dont believe G-D is raging. Second, I have come to the conclusion that it is about the effort. How can G-D hold you to the standard of someone who was exposed to less and had to struggle less. Take it slow, dont change your life in a day and know its the "effort" that counts.

How so?

If you use a scale of 1-5 (5 being the most right-wing) I think this website has people across the spectrum. The city in which we live has perhaps has more people to the right of center than left of it, but I don't think there are as many 5's as there are here. Not many chassidish people, not many ulra-yeshivish Lakewood types, etc...

Also, in real life I (and I think psychodad) don't run into people on the right side of the spectrum that often. So, even though we know they are out there and preaching their right-wing ideas to their audiences, we don't really come into contact with it. And, we wouldn't really know about it at all if not for reading about these things online. At least that is true of myself.

Do you really think that RWers preach in a social setting?

Do you really think that RWers preach on h.com? (IF so, can you please give me a few examples of this)

For example how I grew up, it was normal for women to not cover their hair (except for going to shul). It was also normal for people to go mixed swimming. How could mixed swimming be considered a sin if you go to an Orthodox Jewish camp and a regular everyday activity there is (mixed) swimming. I have a hard time with people telling me doing these things are sins. I don't think I'll ever be able to accept that. Given this, it's very degrading to constantly have to hear people casually reference these activities as assur.

Feeling guilty isn't a good reason to do things.


It's not the direct preaching, it's the casual reference of normal activities as assur. See the example above.

1) They preach to their audience (e.g. a rabbi in his speech on shabbos)

2) Not preach per se, but they talk about their ideas and why those ideas are so good and correct - which I would not be exposed to if not for this site.

i don't get it - are you keeping mitzvot because people are watching?
if you're doing something against halacha, that's one thing. but if it's just a chumra that people have taken upon themselves (which is the majority of cases), what do you care what they say?

are you going to stop having couples over for meals because according to some people it's not tznius?
or are you going to force your wife to shave her head or not wear tichels with the tie on the side because it's too attracting? or that some people say only wigs are tznius, while other people say to burn the wigs...
are you going to stop using the internet or watching tv because someone said so?

as long as you're not purposely flicking lights on and off on shabbos, you can think for yourself.

I don't think that's true anymore.

I see you're point. I grew up that it's normal for women to not cover their hair, although the norms have changed (not the halacha). I did not know of any Orthodox camp that allows mixed swimming, but if you feel that the people telling you it's a sin are wrong, why don't you ask them for sources to prove their point. If you feel the camp is wrong, ask them for the sources.

As long as you do what you know is right, why should you feel like a sinner?


1) There is no speech at the shul m h attends (unless a rare occasion and then everyone grunts about it)
2) Ok, but don't you also talk about your ideas and why they are good and correct? There are many things this site has exposed me to such as what SI stands for, but that doesn't make me a sinner because I now have more information than I did before. It now allows me to make a decision if I Care to retain and act upon this new knowledge or not. (does this post make sense?)

Here's another example. If this is true then I am really not orthodox and there is no point in pretending because there are 1000 other examples such as this where I would be going against halacha.
If it's not true, then It's bothersome that people state this as matter of fact without thinking twice.

It really is. It's not that actual membership of h.com is necessarily heavily leaning to the right, but you definitely find that right-wingers are more vocal and more insistent on their positions. Off the top of my head I could probably name 10 vocal right-wingers but only 3 vocal left-wingers (and of those 3, one of them is me).

1) Ok. I was responding to Moshi in regard to my city. Here, every rabbi gives a speech and if you go to a shiur it will almost always be given by someone right-wing (I would say always, but I am not really plugged into the "shiur circuit" so there might be one I was not aware of).

2) Ok. I was responding specifically to the idea that I would be better off not visiting the site. I'm sure my opinions irritate other people, but whether they would be better off not visiting the site was not under discussion.

Based on my own (unscientific) survey of the Top 40 Overall Posters and Today's Top 20 Posters, there are twice as many right-wingers as left-wingers. And, the right-wingers are far more vocal about their views than the left-wingers.

Can it be that some people feel it's a sin and others don't?


Hmm...Interesting. I can think of quite a few vocal LWers


2) Just so you know they do not irritate me. Not necessarily because I agree with them, but because they are presented in a respectful manner.


Can I see the list of the top 40? Where can I get it?

Since everything that I do that has always been considered "sinful" is now considered normal, what's the point of trying anymore? Why not become a full fledged sinner normal person and stop bothering with my small efforts?

Can it be that some people feel it's a sin and others don't?


Hmm...Interesting. I can think of quite a few vocal LWers


2) Just so you know they do not irritate me. Not necessarily because I agree with them, but because they are presented in a respectful manner.


Can I see the list of the top 40? Where can I get it?

On the H home page right above where it lists the posters currently online it has "Today's active topics · The moderating team · Today's top 20 posters · Overall top 20 posters."

I went to top 40 posters because a lot of the people who have the most posts aren't around anymore.

Yes. But it doesn't seem like it realy matters what an individual thinks anymore, it seems to be about what the norm of the community is.

You define RW/LW way differently than I do, since I see about an even split, with a slight tilt to the left and some posters I'm not sure about. Also how do you classify posters who arn't observant altogether?

Perhaps that is what it seems like to you, but I, personally, do not care that much about community norm and care about my personal thoughts more.

You feel this way regarding what is and what is not a sin? Is that really up to you to decide? Isn’t it up to halacha to decide that?

Clearly you must define anyone to the left of Satmar as being LW.


Me too, so I left them out of the count.


They weren't on either list, unless there are some non-frum posters who I believe are frum.

It is clear that you don't know the posters on this board well enough to classify them as RW or LW. Not that it matters much.

And do you really think that to get a 50-50 split you need to classify everyone to the left of satmar as LW? Is a full half of the board to the right of Satmar? Your sensibilities are seriously out of whack.

This article appeared in the Jewish Press of Feb. 22, 2008.
I'm posting part of the article that I think is relevant to the discussion.


Losing Rational Orthodoxy
By Michael J. Salamon, Ph.D.

".................What makes for a good match today most often relates to' how many chumras or stringencies one chooses to follow. There is no questioning or rational discussion of where the chumras come from, how realistic they may be, and whether or not they apply. The only reaction is an automatic one. The literal is

always chosen above the allegorical. If someone said it, it therefore must be real. And if you follow it, you will find a better shidduch for yourself or your child.

But this is superficial behavior. Just as changing the clothes worn by a substance abuser or a thief will not change his or her behavior, adding chuniras gives us no insight into the inner workings of an individual's personality.

Because we have become more insular, we have begun to lose our rationality. Questions of halacha resolved years ago return to the fore despite a lack of change or new information, and a more stringent, even strident, approach is applied. This approach strongly presumes that the more we disengage from society the healthier we become. I believe, as do most other frum mental health professionals, that the opposite is true.

We must seek that balance that allows us to use the chochma bagoyim, the rational scientific inforrmation available to us, and not dismiss it simply because of its source. To do otherwise would be to place ourselves in an even worse situation. We should find a way to increase chesed, not chumras, to engage without a fear of becoming enmeshed."

Sure, you keep believing that.


It's called hyperbole.

So your previous comment about there being twice as many RW as LW was hyperbole as well? Why not just say what you mean?

No, the count was 24 to 12.

Definitely I'd say that the LW vs RW split here is about 1/3 LW to 2/3 RW, but there's quite a few LWers.
The main difference is that almost all of the LWers here are moderates, while about half of the RWers are extremists.
That said the alltime most obnoxiously and mindlesly extremist RW member doesn't post at all anymore, and the one LW extremist there was here (who I happened to enjoy quite a bit btw) was banned, so there...

GF, how did you differentiate? RW - yeshivishe and chassidishe, LW - the rest (MO including)?